M6s in PF is the most miserable and unfun high end fight in the game

[-Xenia-]

I’m also in the group of starting to not want to play anymore because of m6s. I cleared the last four savage tiers and loved it, mostly in PF the whole time. Now it seems like it’s impossible to get through m6s. Can hardly find a group to begin with. Of the ones I find many don’t fill. Of the ones that fill, they can’t get through adds.

Savage was my favorite activity in this game. They ruined most of the other stuff I like in the game, but at least I had savage. And now they’re ruining that as well.

[Taranok]

I’m also in the group of starting to not want to play anymore because of m6s. I cleared the last four savage tiers and loved it, mostly in PF the whole time. Now it seems like it’s impossible to get through m6s. Can hardly find a group to begin with. Of the ones I find many don’t fill. Of the ones that fill, they can’t get through adds.

Savage was my favorite activity in this game. They ruined most of the other stuff I like in the game, but at least I had savage. And now they’re ruining that as well.

My issue with savage is 4-fold, personally. 1, they're designing a game that is killing my preferred, favorite playstyle (core caster gameplay of memorizing bosses, minimizing movement, and finding pixels to hide in.) 2, they're doing it in a way that breaks their netcode (M5S is substantially harder with even 50 ping.) 3, they're massively ratcheting up multitasking and obscure boss mechanics. 4, they're killing job design to do it.

DT just happens to be the straw that's breaking the camel's back, but all of this started mid-ShB, and EW was when I knew something was deeply wrong.

The issue fundamentally comes down to the devs barking up the wrong tree in designing the game, and forgetting the limitations of their game and what made their best expansion the best expansion. By the way, it's stormblood. All of ShB's success is because of stormblood fixing HW's godawful mistakes.

For netcode itself, the devs learned this lesson in titan ex with weight of the land. How the heck can netcode issues sneak into the game still?

[KageTokage]

For netcode itself, the devs learned this lesson in titan ex with weight of the land. How the heck can netcode issues sneak into the game still?

I am kind of curious how many mechanics have violated their claim that no telegraphed mechanics would give less time to react then weight of the land did at this point.

[Taranok]

I am kind of curious how many mechanics have violated their claim that no telegraphed mechanics would give less time to react then weight of the land did at this point.

It depends on how they test it. A really old claim is that they test the game at 250ms ping, but a fake 250ms ping where you just programatically delay a signal before sending it to a computer in the same room as the server is very, very different than a real world 250ms ping which can wildly fluctuate.

Likewise, weight of the land isn't the best mechanic, but it's a lot easier to react to than most mechanics in m5s and m6s I've seen. Take that for what you will, it's just my own opinion and observations.

It's also hard to even want to hold the devs to a standard this old when the game has changed. Weight of the Land even as an individually fast mechanic comes relatively slow, somewhere in the 2.5-4s timing between individual weights. Even funky floor can't say that, because even if they are identical timing, the mechanics happen for a solid 30 seconds of continuous movement, while weight of the lands is 2 dodges and done, meaning the mechanic overall is substantially easier and if the player runs into problems, it's all of 5 seconds of total time and the mechanic is done.

Then there's the relative distance moved (WotL is higher individually, funky floor is vastly higher overall) and even if it lives up to the standard, it's a marked increase in bad fight design because WotL breaking the netcode shouldn't be the bare minimum. There should be a very, very healthy buffer above that.

But you can't have a healthy buffer in 1/2/4/8 mechanics design where the only difficulty adjustments you can possibly do are pace, punishment, and raw distance required to solve. It eventually just gets extremely easy and players, rightly and wrongly, demand harder content because 1/2/4/8 is predictable and extremely boring when there's literally only 1 possible solution. Why wrongly? Because most players can't recognize that the real problem is how encounters are being designed. Driving the game harder into the corner of bad mechanics design cannot possibly fix the problem without alienating large swaths of the playerbase as it inevitably turns the game into not only something it isn't, but something it never can reliably be.

[Kohashi]

I’m also in the group of starting to not want to play anymore because of m6s. I cleared the last four savage tiers and loved it, mostly in PF the whole time. Now it seems like it’s impossible to get through m6s. Can hardly find a group to begin with. Of the ones I find many don’t fill. Of the ones that fill, they can’t get through adds.

Savage was my favorite activity in this game. They ruined most of the other stuff I like in the game, but at least I had savage. And now they’re ruining that as well.

Oh please.. as if Snek memes weren't a thing in p8s and most PF's that were "phase 2" were actually a snek prog in disguise. Give me a break..

[-Xenia-]

Oh please.. as if Snek memes weren't a thing in p8s and most PF's that were "phase 2" were actually a snek prog in disguise. Give me a break..

Sure, snakes in p8s caused a lot of wipes. P12s was also pretty miserable to progress in pf. These are 4th fights - I find myself more tolerant of this sort of thing in a 4th fight. M6s is a 2nd fight, which I do not think should have such a large roadblock for pf. Also, compared to m6s adds, snakes in p8s were ridiculously easy for pf.

[ForsakenRoe]

M6s is a 2nd fight, which I do not think should have such a large roadblock for pf. Also, compared to m6s adds, snakes in p8s were ridiculously easy for pf.

Bonds 3, those turret thingys, Harrowing Hell

[Jeeqbit]

Bonds 3, those turret thingys, Harrowing Hell

Turrets never went as badly as people meme'd them out to be really. Moreover, I would get to turrets in most fresh prog parties anyways. Bonds 3 and after was rough but often healer LB3 handled that. As for Harrowing Hell, I don't know if people could manage it without tank LB3 at release but obviously many people didn't have it there anyways because of an earlier healer LB3 and still cleared.

[Kohashi]

Sure, snakes in p8s caused a lot of wipes. P12s was also pretty miserable to progress in pf. These are 4th fights - I find myself more tolerant of this sort of thing in a 4th fight. M6s is a 2nd fight, which I do not think should have such a large roadblock for pf. Also, compared to m6s adds, snakes in p8s were ridiculously easy for pf.

P6s vs P7s would like to have a word with you
P10s vs p11s would like to as well.

Anything else? Ah yes, the Snek prior and easy for PF cannot go together, sorry.

[Absurdity]

P6s vs P7s would like to have a word with you
P10s vs p11s would like to as well.

Anything else? Ah yes, the Snek prior and easy for PF cannot go together, sorry.

Not sure I'd count the Abyssos fights, P6S was a complete joke as soon as you realized there were only two patterns, especially when you cheesed Cachexia 2 like most of party finder.
And the hardest part of P7S was remembering to hold your 6 minute burst until after Immortal's Obol, Harvests weren't particularly difficult either if you used Inumaru instead of Hector.

P5S was probably the bigger wall because people in PF just couldn't do Venom Squall without killing each other consistently.