Prog skipping/lying is going wild this tier.

[Jeeqbit]

This has always been a thing:

A10S in Heavensward, I setup post-Steamroller parties and nobody could get beyond it. It was frustrating. We had no [Duty Complete] then so it was easy to sub in a static and clear it with a competent party.

E1S I was ready to clear on the second pull (it was that easy), but it took me 4 weeks because nobody could do the first phase right. In the end, I subbed in a static that forgot to put [Duty Complete] and cleared the whole fight despite not having even seen most of it, because I knew I could do it.

E2S I got almost to the end on the first party I joined because it was the easiest fight ever. But after 6 weeks, it was evident that this was the hardest fight ever for PF and filtered them so hard even when joining midway progs. I switched to a healer to try and carry them through and cleared pretty quick. In one of them I was rezzing the other healer repeatedly and basically solo healing.

I could go on but this has always been a thing and always will be.

I don't think blacklisting is the solution. I think the other post made recently about recording what % you were at when the first person died or got a damage down, and then allowing PF to filter based on % progress, would help.

[Kohashi]

E1S I was ready to clear on the second pull (it was that easy), but it took me 4 weeks because nobody could do the first phase right. In the end, I subbed in a static that forgot to put [Duty Complete] and cleared the whole fight despite not having even seen most of it, because I knew I could do it.

You pretty much described a good chunk of PF and why they prog lie. It's good that it ended well for you, but yeah. It's one of the main contributors.

[Jeeqbit]

You pretty much described a good chunk of PF and why they prog lie. It's good that it ended well for you, but yeah. It's one of the main contributors.

Yes, although the difference was that when I did it, I was extremely confident and that confidence was proven by 1 shotting it with the static. I wouldn't do it if I wasn't super confident.

The issue with prog liars is when they join a prog far beyond what they can get to consistently, and aren't confident in their ability to get to that prog point consistently, but want to benefit from the other players being consistent.

[Kohashi]

Yes, although the difference was that when I did it, I was extremely confident and that confidence was proven by 1 shotting it with the static. I wouldn't do it if I wasn't super confident.

The issue with prog liars is when they join a prog far beyond what they can get to consistently, and aren't confident in their ability to get to that prog point consistently, but want to benefit from the other players being consistent.

I am pretty sure most people who go into PF share a very similar mentality. Overconfidence in their own ability to execute flawlessly something they have only seen once or in a guide. However, theory often doesn't translate into practice right away.

The other chunk pretty much are selfish a-holes who want to speed up progress at the expense of everyone else involved.

Anyway, in your case, at least you had a static, so basically a KFF situation, which is often done and okay. I also did it with p12s + another friend because we were just sick and tired of the memes.

For me, at least, when I see people join a certain prog point and fail to deliver consistency for whatever reason, and they do not remove themselves from the situation, I simply BL and kick them. By being kind to some random dude, you are unkind to everyone else, and that hardly seems fair.

[Jeeqbit]

I am pretty sure most people who go into PF share a very similar mentality. Overconfidence in their own ability to execute flawlessly something they have only seen once or in a guide. However, theory often doesn't translate into practice right away.

I don't think they are overconfident, actually. I think that in many cases, the individuals are just impulsive ie. they don't think.

Their thought process is: "I have seen the mechanic once, therefore I am up to that mechanic", even though they can't get there consistently. I know because I have been in discord with random PUGs that have said that exact thing.

So let's say they saw 3rd phase of a fight with a bunch of deaths and numerous mistakes. Now they will join 3rd phase progs. They don't actually understand that they need to be able to get there consistently with no mistakes - vulns, damage downs, deaths, etc.

For myself it's different because normally I wouldn't do what I did. I would just join a fresh prog instead. It's very hard for me to be confident, so if I am then the fight must just genuinely be that easy for my role.

For me, at least, when I see people join a certain prog point and fail to deliver consistency for whatever reason, and they do not remove themselves from the situation, I simply BL and kick them.

It's inconsiderate for sure. In my experience, in all of life really, a lot of people are inconsiderate and I don't understand it.

[Kohashi]

I don't think they are overconfident, actually. I think that in many cases, the individuals are just impulsive ie. they don't think.

Their thought process is: "I have seen the mechanic once, therefore I am up to that mechanic", even though they can't get there consistently. I know because I have been in discord with random PUGs that have said that exact thing.

So let's say they saw 3rd phase of a fight with a bunch of deaths and numerous mistakes. Now they will join 3rd phase progs. They don't actually understand that they need to be able to get there consistently with no mistakes - vulns, damage downs, deaths, etc.

For myself it's different because normally I wouldn't do what I did. I would just join a fresh prog instead. It's very hard for me to be confident, so if I am then the fight must just genuinely be that easy for my role.
It's inconsiderate for sure. In my experience, in all of life really, a lot of people are inconsiderate and I don't understand it.

I mean, whatever reason they got, they should not be doing that.

I have seen a lot of ppl hiding their activity and prog point now, but the funny part is... in m6s you cannot prog lie at ALL. The add phase has extremely specific and precise movements that each of the party members needs to do, as well as adds prior, and how they focus/cleave. Somebody that did not reached a point enough will be very easily exposed. It's just futile..

[Luijao]

The thing is, if you don't lie, people with lower prog points who are lying will join your pf, and you won't be able to practice what you want. If you lie, you will be able to practice, but will end up screwing people that are being honest in your party. Lying has no consequence in PF, sure you might get blacklisted by some people, but I doubt that will stop the liar from raiding.

[Amarande]

If anything, the party finder tool needs to work such that people apply then the leader can choose who to invite. Would give party leaders more control over their party.

This superficially appears to be a good idea, but the reality is that that is how you get the problem WoW and Lost Ark have suffered from in spades with PUGs: any stated gear requirement becomes basically hogwash because in reality the leader will be holding out for a hero with more armaments than Garlemald.

We already had plenty of player tales in previous tiers in which people felt like they were forced to quit progression for the tier not because of their skill, but because they did not have the luck to win enough Savage loot drops each week, and so their ilvl fell below their peers and they were forced down into the "poor" PF pool.

Add in the fact that there's nothing to make up for non-won Savage loot coffers in the gearing race until odd patch months later, and you have even more of an issue.

The result is that a seemingly useful solution really winds up being a half-baked one that intensifies the FOMO that is already frankly far too troublesome in endgame play. Not good.

Dunno what's more cringe, that that guy actually wants a 'name-shaming list' or that he thinks SE or any reputable company would ever do something like that.

This. It's well known that Japan having such a blacklist (they post it to one of their 4chan equivalents, IIRC) is already an issue with FFXIV culture. I can't imagine SE wanting to further enable it (frankly, I'm surprised they haven't done away with permanent Lodestone ID numbers, as they are fairly instrumental to the JP blacklist from what I have gleaned in the past).

But please tell me whats more cringe? Someone frequently joining PUG's far below their progpoint, wasting 7 other peoples time while being protected by multiple layers of ToS OR a community created list that reduces scummy behaviour like this.

Do consider that only a fraction, likely a small minority, of these accused prog liars are likely doing so with an actual intent to grief. Most genuinely want to clear the duty, but they are frustrated or overconfident, and it is not always easy to peg your prog point clearly due to FFXIV's design allowing one to typically partake several mechanics past what many raiders would consider "your prog point" plus if you waited to be perfect at every mechanic every single time you would never do content. Even people that have ultimate on farm biff mechanics every now and then, after all ...


The real takeaway I'm getting from forums and Reddit this expansion is a very simple one.

Tilt is out of control, guys.

Don't you play this game to have fun? I have never seen such an absolute epidemic of tilt in any online RPG.

ANY ONLINE RPG.

This INCLUDES several expansions of WoW, and honestly, it even includes the Diablo II hardcore days where people routinely lost characters to cheaters that would use hacks to instantly portal to them and PK.

What the heck is wrong with people? I'm not even sure it's limited to gaming, humanity overall seems to be having this absolutely horrid problem with prickliness and mistrust ...

[Chiru_Kai]

I feel that it should be easy enough to register a datapoint: the longest time a player did a certain fight without a damage down or death debuff.
Can be expressed in boss HP percentage, or in fight time.
So it can be "prog point: 20%" or "prog point: 2m10s". Something like that.

This is with the moderate assumption that if you get a damage down or death, you failed the mechanic and that is your prog point.
I know in some cases you will get a damage down or death from other players but this is not meant to be entirely accurate.

With this datapoint per player, per fight, allow party finder groups to set a minimum prog point in the fight. It will exclude people that are before this prog point. They just can't join the party, period.
And when making a PF, you can't put a prog point further than your own.


It won't be a perfect mechanic, but it can weed out a bunch of prog liars right away.

[Volgia]

I feel that it should be easy enough to register a datapoint: the longest time a player did a certain fight without a damage down or death debuff.
Can be expressed in boss HP percentage, or in fight time.
So it can be "prog point: 20%" or "prog point: 2m10s". Something like that.

This is with the moderate assumption that if you get a damage down or death, you failed the mechanic and that is your prog point.
I know in some cases you will get a damage down or death from other players but this is not meant to be entirely accurate.

With this datapoint per player, per fight, allow party finder groups to set a minimum prog point in the fight. It will exclude people that are before this prog point. They just can't join the party, period.
And when making a PF, you can't put a prog point further than your own.


It won't be a perfect mechanic, but it can weed out a bunch of prog liars right away.

I can see tons of issues here, from people getting gated despite knowing a fight cuz they got damage downs, to horribly insane gatekeeping and toxicity.