I'm a MACHINIST, not a MAN

[Valence]

Many thanks.

There are other examples of this like the WHM beam (I think).

So we have a situation on "limited effects" where small, useful telegraphs are removed, but completely useless, large flashy ones are retained.

Is there a list anywhere of which fall into each category?

This is why you can't seriously play pvp without full effects, which is unfortunately pretty cancer in FL (I only use limited there). A lot of LBs won't show, like spite, contradance, etc. Probably why nobody reacts to spite with guard either in FL (I certainly can't with limited either). Whoever is crazy enough or has the fortitude to play with full fx in FL, especially when going melee, mad props to you either way.

[Mawlzy]

This is why you can't seriously play pvp without full effects, which is unfortunately pretty cancer in FL (I only use limited there). A lot of LBs won't show, like spite, contradance, etc. Probably why nobody reacts to spite with guard either in FL (I certainly can't with limited either). Whoever is crazy enough or has the fortitude to play with full fx in FL, especially when going melee, mad props to you either way.

I've never used Guard much and I suspect this is a reason why.

[Novani]

Haven't been able to test out the changes much due to the insane lagfest that FL has turned into for me this early into the patch, but from what practice I've been able to do, it does feel a bit generous a boost to your hardest hitting moves. In FL you almost always play like an opportunist in order to gain BH, usually against other ranged since anything melee tends to be way too durable to bother wasting time on.

So it's a plus when considering the fast highs that everyone's gaining now, doesn't really change the gameplay loop much at all for MCH other than one more button. I do know this patch is highlighting just how short a distance 25y is though.

This is why you can't seriously play pvp without full effects, which is unfortunately pretty cancer in FL (I only use limited there). A lot of LBs won't show, like spite, contradance, etc. Probably why nobody reacts to spite with guard either in FL (I certainly can't with limited either). Whoever is crazy enough or has the fortitude to play with full fx in FL, especially when going melee, mad props to you either way.

I'd say Guard is 90% of the time useless when it comes to Spite, by the time the bubble animation even starts the LB's damage is already locked in, it's what makes MCH one of the more ridiculous classes to fight when they climb in BH, though without much durability. That said, compared to the 6.1 days of random 3% chance to execute with one of their regular empowered skills (Chainsaw I think it was?), it's a a lot more balanced out.

[Cidel]

With Bravery being introduced, MCH is arguably the single biggest threat to anyone's Battle High level. A lot of people who play MCH are just @$$ with it, but you get a good player who can actually mouse-over targets and pick them out in a crowd; the thing is now an executioner if it wants you dead. Bravery actually gives Spite the impact of getting head-shotted by a sniper rifle in any FPS.

Naturally, the MCH's Battle High level is a factor in how much prep has to go into the target before Spite, but on most ranged dps/healers, an Analyzed Drill/Anchor/Chainsaw into Spite is probably a guaranteed kill absent of Guard or mitigations like shields. And it's no joke for melee either; I've seen a BH5 MNK get taken-out by a BH5 MCH's Spite after only getting the buffed chainsaw's defense break.

I'd say Guard is 90% of the time useless when it comes to Spite, by the time the bubble animation even starts the LB's damage is already locked in

While this may have been true prior to the giant initial damage snapshot changes in 7.1(?)(where the crosshairs meant the damage had already been applied, and was waiting for the animation to resolve, meaning it was impossible to react with Guard to), after their changes to snapshotting various attacks creating damage delays (even with the toning-down of them in 7.2), Spite is reasonably reactable to with Guard, and is still your best defense against it. If it's hitting you even after your bubble is activated, it must be your own latency or you're reacting too late when the crosshair animation is about to vanish.

[Mawlzy]

With Bravery being introduced, MCH is arguably the single biggest threat to anyone's Battle High level. A lot of people who play MCH are just @$$ with it, but you get a good player who can actually mouse-over targets and pick them out in a crowd; the thing is now an executioner if it wants you dead. Bravery actually gives Spite the impact of getting head-shotted by a sniper rifle in any FPS.

Naturally, the MCH's Battle High level is a factor in how much prep has to go into the target before Spite, but on most ranged dps/healers, an Analyzed Drill/Anchor/Chainsaw into Spite is probably a guaranteed kill absent of Guard or mitigations like shields. And it's no joke for melee either; I've seen a BH5 MNK get taken-out by a BH5 MCH's Spite after only getting the buffed chainsaw's defense break.





While this may have been true prior to the giant initial damage snapshot changes in 7.1(?)(where the crosshairs meant the damage had already been applied, and was waiting for the animation to resolve, meaning it was impossible to react with Guard to), after their changes to snapshotting various attacks creating damage delays (even with the toning-down of them in 7.2), Spite is reasonably reactable to with Guard, and is still your best defense against it. If it's hitting you even after your bubble is activated, it must be your own latency or you're reacting too late when the crosshair animation is about to vanish.

With limited effects, you don't see the crosshairs at all.

[Cidel]

With limited effects, you don't see the crosshairs at all.

That should be fixed. I wouldn't know, I don't have the effects off of the default setting. That's as bad as not seeing PvE stack markers. Maybe I should swap to MCH for invisible LB kills if a significant population has effects set to limited...

That change has only helped people who already had plenty of time, and this is across all modes. Yes, latency is a factor, a big factor in fact. But if this can occur consistently even on a server where the rating of connection is supposedly excellent? Yeah ok, why not. Far be it for me to dispute it.

Well, actually, no. The change finally made Spite reactable and guardable to anyone. Up until then, since as far back as the implementation of everyone getting their own LBs, getting targeted with Spite meant you only had two seconds to heal to as close as full as possible or mitigate/shield, because Guarding afterwards really was useless. Spite's snapshot was untouched in the execution/effect activation shortenings this past 7.2 patch. People were complaining about MCH'S LB's reactability once 7.1 dropped:

MCH:
Even though we all have more HP and MCH's limit break stayed at 36,000, you can just Guard when you see the crosshairs on you. I'm pretty sure this means MCH's garbage now.

MCH: The LB suffers from the new hit detection more than any other LB.

Or even praising the change in regards to how the LB used to be:

- A MCH LBing you without warning, and no matter what you do you cannot react, and take the damage for free for no reason because you somehow were not reading the MCH mind at the time, getting an easy kill on you

So yes, Spite is still very much reactable to; no less than when it was made so in 7.1. If latency is your issue (which you've implied as much), then I imagine Guard in general isn't as reliable for you in other various situations as well (or if you play in limited effects and the LB is invisible). I can't discredit how useless Guard is for you, but it definitely is a valid answer to MCH's Spite at this present time (again, if you aren't using Limited effects).

[Novani]

While this may have been true prior to the giant initial damage snapshot changes in 7.1(?)(where the crosshairs meant the damage had already been applied, and was waiting for the animation to resolve, meaning it was impossible to react with Guard to), after their changes to snapshotting various attacks creating damage delays (even with the toning-down of them in 7.2), Spite is reasonably reactable to with Guard, and is still your best defense against it. If it's hitting you even after your bubble is activated, it must be your own latency or you're reacting too late when the crosshair animation is about to vanish.

That change has only helped people who already had plenty of time, and this is across all modes. Yes, latency is a factor, a big factor in fact. But if this can occur consistently even on a server where the rating of connection is supposedly excellent? Yeah ok, why not. Far be it for me to dispute it.

[Teno]

With Bravery being introduced, MCH is arguably the single biggest threat to anyone's Battle High level. A lot of people who play MCH are just @$$ with it, but you get a good player who can actually mouse-over targets and pick them out in a crowd; the thing is now an executioner if it wants you dead. Bravery actually gives Spite the impact of getting head-shotted by a sniper rifle in any FPS.

Naturally, the MCH's Battle High level is a factor in how much prep has to go into the target before Spite, but on most ranged dps/healers, an Analyzed Drill/Anchor/Chainsaw into Spite is probably a guaranteed kill absent of Guard or mitigations like shields. And it's no joke for melee either; I've seen a BH5 MNK get taken-out by a BH5 MCH's Spite after only getting the buffed chainsaw's defense break.





While this may have been true prior to the giant initial damage snapshot changes in 7.1(?)(where the crosshairs meant the damage had already been applied, and was waiting for the animation to resolve, meaning it was impossible to react with Guard to), after their changes to snapshotting various attacks creating damage delays (even with the toning-down of them in 7.2), Spite is reasonably reactable to with Guard, and is still your best defense against it. If it's hitting you even after your bubble is activated, it must be your own latency or you're reacting too late when the crosshair animation is about to vanish.

Do the combo as OP posted and you'll snipe whoever you want that is squishy enough. Sniping BH5 players has never been so reliable. I think it's good that you need to be wary of machinists now, they were a joke for a long while.
And it's not like you can do this at any point, you need the LB and chain saw to be safe. So any MCH roaming and staying in chain saw for a little while -targetting specific people or whatnot- is suspicious now. Which is good in my opinion, and much less impactful than its overall damage anyway (which is high now) so it feels ok.