Mao has question for everyones about DDR-style boss fights.

[Kazuke_Miso]

Forsaken 1 in O8S, the whole shielding before the debuff goes up to soak the meteors is not needed.

If you're going to spread misinformation you should at least have cleared the fight back then. The towers do very light damage.

And since you conveniently dismissed the whole post about DDR raids by laser focusing on a (non-existent) minor error, I will do the same to your idiotic post.

Most jobs hates AST's Arrow as you just ran out of resources faster, coupled with the fact noone used the party resource generators, made content feel incredibly bad when you just have to stop attacking due to no fault of your own.

This is a complete skill issue except on jobs like MCH. Fey wind and Arrows were optimal play and good players knew how to exploit them effectively.

Honestly I don't even understand why people who clearly have not done the content that people are discussing (O8S) chime in.

[Mikey_R]

If you're going to spread misinformation you should at least have cleared the fight back then. The towers do very light damage.

And since you conveniently dismissed the whole post about DDR raids by laser focusing on a (non-existent) minor error, I will do the same to your idiotic post.

Try again. I checked the mechanics by reviewing Mizzteq and Mr Happy. Mizzteq never says you have to shield before hand and Mr Happy specifically states that the meteors do no damage if you have enough party members in them:

https://youtu.be/pZD7pOd4Gzg?si=lH7yTGaII5hXZE3J&t=905

To further this, the guide you linked can be interpreted as the heads doing damage, but I'm not here for vague wording, conveniently, there is also a video attached, a Ninja PoV as it happens. Go to Forsaken 1, the only buffs on the Ninja are Protect and Plenary Indulgence, the Path of Light hits and it does ZERO damage. Here is that point in the video, starting at the point just before their HP reduces to 1.

In this case, I do believe I have provided enough evidence to say, without a doubt, The Path of Light does ZERO damage.

If you don't want to provide explanations as to why your other videos are not classed as DDR, I am just going to ignore them. Evidence without explanation is not evidence at all.

This is a complete skill issue except on jobs like MCH. Fey wind and Arrows were optimal play and good players knew how to exploit them effectively.

Honestly I don't even understand why people who clearly have not done the content that people are discussing (O8S) chime in.

The problem is, you are clearly looking at things from the point of view of a static group, where players know what they are doing. However, these things also need to work in a random group setting and being unable to attack because your TP regener didn't regen your TP, or you just did not get randomly matched with one, was a problem. This is only made worse by the fact random groups are, by their nature, going to do less damage than a static group, so fights take longer, which gives more chance for this to happen.

[Kazuke_Miso]

Try again. I checked the mechanics by reviewing Mizzteq and Mr Happy. Mizzteq never says you have to shield before hand and Mr Happy specifically states that the meteors do no damage if you have enough party members in them:

https://youtu.be/pZD7pOd4Gzg?si=lH7yTGaII5hXZE3J&t=905

To further this, the guide you linked can be interpreted as the heads doing damage, but I'm not here for vague wording, conveniently, there is also a video attached, a Ninja PoV as it happens. Go to Forsaken 1, the only buffs on the Ninja are Protect and Plenary Indulgence, the Path of Light hits and it does ZERO damage. Here is that point in the video, starting at the point just before their HP reduces to 1.

In this case, I do believe I have provided enough evidence to say, without a doubt, The Path of Light does ZERO damage.

If you don't want to provide explanations as to why your other videos are not classed as DDR, I am just going to ignore them. Evidence without explanation is not evidence at all.



The problem is, you are clearly looking at things from the point of view of a static group, where players know what they are doing. However, these things also need to work in a random group setting and being unable to attack because your TP regener didn't regen your TP, or you just did not get randomly matched with one, was a problem. This is only made worse by the fact random groups are, by their nature, going to do less damage than a static group, so fights take longer, which gives more chance for this to happen.

You are right on that particular minor point that the towers don't do damage, but you still literally ignored the entire point on how they used to make more than mere DDR mechanics. The Forsaken 1 heal check isn't just about soaking towers. You seized on that minor point to ignore the entire example and post.

Maybe if you have ever actually done any Savage content you would intuitively understand how encounter design has changed, but there's no point in trying to convince a white knight when they peddle in debate parlor tricks like using an irrelevant mistake to discredit the whole argument. You are clearly not arguing in good faith, and your posts on this forum have been white knight defense after white knight defense, so I encourage EVERYONE to not bother responding to you in good faith either.

[Mikey_R]

You are right on that particular minor point that the towers don't do damage, but you still literally ignored the entire point on how they used to make more than mere DDR mechanics. The Forsaken 1 heal check isn't just about soaking towers. You seized on that minor point to ignore the entire example and post.

The whole point of the original post was that it was an interesting heal check, in that you had to pre-shield before incurable was applied. This was due to the fact the shields were needed to soak damage that you had no, or very little time to heal between incurable falling off and the damage being taken.

The initial point that the pre-shielding was necessary is not true. Taking damage in a tight timeframe from incurable falling off was not true. The only damage going out after the HP reduction was from the tethered adds and the damage from those can be delayed, giving healers time to heal and shield as needed.

Granted, it is a good strat to try and preserve uptime for melee DPS or allowing casters to stand still for longer, but that wasn't the point being made. The point being made was the pre-shielding was the intended solution for the mechanic, which is not the case.

However, this still doesn't explain why it is not a DDR mechanic. Healers heal, you stand in the safe spot, mechanic resolves itself, heal ready for tether heads (which are just AoEs at the end of the day). What I have just described can be attributed to many things in the game, so why is it different to something else?

Now, it has been a while since I have done an on release savage fight (Back in ShB if you must know), but this also brings up another point, why it is only savage content that apparently has mechanics that are being classed as 'not DDR'? What about other pieces of content? If it is the case it only appears in savage content, then why are we judging the current fight design based on normal and not on the savage version? Surely, if it is only savage that gets the non DDR mechanics, then it is only fair to wait until then?

I am also not trying to trick you. My main thing has always been to try and get a definition of what it means for a mechanic or fight to not be classed as DDR. We obviously aren't seeing the same things, so you need to tell me what you see and why you see it, otherwise, this discussion is going nowhere and I can only conclude you have nothing to back up your statements.

Also, I am fully aware this guy is likely to be a Titanman alt (showing all the classic signs), however, I am using this as an opportunity to highlight how not to do things. It is fine to disagree on things, it is fine to have a discussion, infact, disagreeing on things and explaining why you have your point of view. This helps to dig into what the actual issue is and give more meaningful feedback as opposed to the vague statement of 'DDR', which could mean anything.

[Valence]

No they didn't. Unless this is a stark difference between the EU playerbase and the NA playerbase that noone is aware of. Most jobs hates AST's Arrow as yo ujust ran out of resources faster, coupled with the fact noone used the party resource generators, made content feel incredibly bad when you just have to stop attacking due to no fault of your own.

Even if Kazuke already addressed that bit, I'll do it too because sometimes I do actually wonder if you played through anything before SHB, or if we played into a different timeline.

I played on NA during HW and SB and statics or people used the Arrow all the time, same as they opened with Fey Wind all the time, etc. Obviously there were limits like Enhanced Arrow which was kinda trolling someone, but that's an outlier.
In SB Arrow was a gain on almost all jobs (bar MCH), and they didn't run out of TP.
In HW some were definitely a big no-no (MNK, PLD...), but some could take it, probably more than we think depending on the comp, notably having a rphys (like in all parties, some had double rphys due to the meta) would allow a lot of TP sustain, which was required past a point in any fight lasting longer than a dungeon's. The actual reason ASTs dodged Extended royal road cards like Arrow and Spear was that Balance was just better, and Spear was absolute garbage in HW (but solid in SB).

I don't remember running out of resources that much due to other players failure even in casual content for the very reason that casual content was also a lot more forgiving than savage on resource management (except AoE in dungeons but that's another trivia). I do even remember complete randoms in dungeons manashifting away, or even goading. Uncommon, but not totally non existent either, and that was just a bonus, the run worked perfectly fine without. That's frankly a skill issue.

This also leads into something that bugs me a lot and that is the 'all fights are just mechanics X,Y Z etc.' Of course they are, those are the basic building blocks of any fight, it's like me complaining that all jobs are composed of GCDs and oGCDs and are therefore all the same. They aren't. They all use the tools in different ways and this has always been the case. As for some mechanics that don't get used often or at all in recent times, you have to ask why? Is it because they were bad mechanics, is it because the players didn't like having to stop their rotations to deal with it? (which would be a bigger issue in today's job profiles than it was back in HW).

And how many more blocks have we lost over time? All the ones that aren't about players running all over the place and jumping into the safe spot. You keep asking the question, we keep giving you examples, but you always come back to ask the same question anyway. Why should we bother more?

The problem is, you are clearly looking at things from the point of view of a static group, where players know what they are doing. However, these things also need to work in a random group setting and being unable to attack because your TP regener didn't regen your TP, or you just did not get randomly matched with one, was a problem. This is only made worse by the fact random groups are, by their nature, going to do less damage than a static group, so fights take longer, which gives more chance for this to happen.

The random group excuse is literally why we got where we are today, with the complete removal of skill expression. What's next, we removed tanking/healing failure points in casual content, what is left to remove, since the only thing that remains to trip people up is encounter mechanics?



Edit: I already gave other examples of non DDR mechanics or fights in another thread. I do not especially expect you to engage this in good faith beyond obtuse denial, but here you go. I don't think SB encounters are great examples of it, since SB is precisely where they started seriously remolding encounters to their modern solutions. The DDR was less a matter of "is this DDR?" rather than a matter of scale, and uniformity/homogenization/macdonaldization, which was a lot less prevalent back then.

[Kozh]

Obviously there were limits like Enhanced Arrow which was kinda trolling someone, but that's an outlier.

Just want to tell funny story, but when I was new to the game, I accidentally hard trolling a DF Monk by giving them Enhanced Arrow. Which then I extended the duration with Time Dilation, because my noob brain thought gotta go fast = more dps

Then I saw their TP vanished lmao (thankfully it's just trash pull on Sohr Khai)



Man, I miss my RNG cards....