Yuweyawata Field Station is so wrong

[Moomba33]

"These people will NEVER want to use the duty finder in future." Which I don't think is the case.

There isn't really a way to find out the truth of this without extensive player surveys, or maybe data from SE themselves. But I think it could be true. I've seen requests like this pop up over the years from players that want to focus on crafting for example. If you aren't focused on PVE you don't need that many tomes to begin with, and can get what you do need from Hunts instead of roulettes.

I think XIV attracts a lot of players who aren't in it for the MMO PVE experience. My friends and I started it just because it was a FF game we could play together. Trusts were added to help fans of single player FFs enjoy XIV, I don't see a problem with adding a difficulty toggle to this as well. A really easy change that shouldn't take much dev time is to add "lives" to all Trust runs like you already get for the 89 and 93 story bosses so it isn't an immediate wipe when you die.

Edit: As for myself I do enjoy this game's PVE and think Dawntrail's dungeons are at a fun difficulty for me. However I recognize that everyone experiences difficulty differently and don't have a problem with easier modes to help players experience the story. I was a proponent for story modes for raids back in the Coil days and was grateful when SE added them in HW, I hope a solution can be found to help struggling players through story dungeons while keeping the current dungeons intact.

[Mawlzy]

Well my issue would be that I do care for the community since it's where I meet cool people and interact with them. It's an MMO. The game being pushed more and more as a solo experience is antithetical to the general experience. It removes people from roulettes which makes the experience for people wanting to play the multiplayer aspect of the game worse which, I assure you without any statistical backing to my claim, is undoubtedly bigger than the group of people who play the game and want an easy mode.

I would suggest that MSQ dungeons and trials specifically are precisely the last place you'd meet "cool people." There's nothing social about Duty Finder. You're lucky to get a "o/" or a "gg" when people are running them as fast as possible, largely thanks to the tome grind. The only exception I can think of is Prae because of the unskippable cut scenes.

Moreover, for those not grinding tomes, the time most of them spend in DF duties is miniscule relative to other content.

The multiplayer aspect of the game shines in exploration zones, hunt trains, some FATEs, and Frontline where communication and cooperation are required. I'm not personally interested in venues and the like, but presumably that is where you go if you want to meet people and experience the multiplayer aspect of the game. Duty Finder? Bottom of the list.

Running dungeons is a means to and end. All Duty Finder emphasizes is how anti-social many players are.

It also runs into the issue of what happens with you AFTER you finish the content, since MSQ content is made to be rerun. You may not care about tomes, but a lot of people like to level alts and get tomes for new gear.

The content isn't made to be rerun, it used to need to be rerun (from SQEX's perspective) to help sprouts advance the MSQ. Those who need tomes for raiding can continue to use DF; that's not the population we're addressing anyway. Besides, there are plenty of other ways to get tomes. The main purpose of roulettes is to bribe people into rerunning content. For MSQ dungeons, this has been rendered obsolete by Duty Support.

[Eesh]

Snip

I'm sorry but you're just disregarding groups of people that run content for other reasons here in the same way you were being disparaged earlier for being unable to just get better earlier. Just because you don't agree/there's a better alternative does not explicitly mean that one should go towards the other. Just because 'There's better places to meet people' doesn't invalidate that that's a portion. In fact, I'd say that if you're self professed to not enjoy the PvE aspect of the game then you're no doubt going to go into any duty finder content with a grim mentality anyways so no doubt you're not going to socialize. But that's not been my experience.

But to actually confront your points.

Grinding tomes isn't just a raid mentality. It's not even an extreme thing. People do it because, like you, they like to see the number tied to their character go up. It indicates progression. It's a big MMO thing to see that item level go up. My first FC didn't raid and yet they'd still run their dailies and do their weekly Alliance Raids to get their tokens. It's one of the more common routines to hop on, run dailies, and then hop out.

And further. Tomes aren't even the only aspect of the roulettes and duty finder. People use PvE content to level their jobs. A core identity of this game is that it's the game you don't need an alt for other jobs on. You can, and probably should, have a few different jobs. And one of the best ways to level is through that daily bonus. That's the most casual of casual reasons to engage with it: MSQ only leveled my Paladin but I want to play my Red Mage too. You can level through alternative means but offering choices is better.

Also, what do you mean that anything has been rendered obsolete by Duty Support when one of your core issues is that Duty Support does nothing to address personal difficulties clearing the content. You can run Mt Gulg with the trust but if you manage the halos on the last boss you're going to be floored every time. We've already addressed that you falling on your face time and time again is the problem. So rather than come to the conclusion that the worse players in the community need their own isolated padded room to bumble around safely, let's try to figure out how to include them rather than exclude.

[Mawlzy]

Also, what do you mean that anything has been rendered obsolete by Duty Support when one of your core issues is that Duty Support does nothing to address personal difficulties clearing the content. You can run Mt Gulg with the trust but if you manage the halos on the last boss you're going to be floored every time. We've already addressed that you falling on your face time and time again is the problem. So rather than come to the conclusion that the worse players in the community need their own isolated padded room to bumble around safely, let's try to figure out how to include them rather than exclude.

Right, which is why I suggested a less-challenging mode be trialed in Duty Support. The need to clear content via Duty Finder now only exists in on-patch content by players who wish to be carried. I can't believe you're arguing for creating situations that big butch gamers are constantly whining about.

Yes DF can be used level alts and secondary jobs. It can be used for fun(?), I guess. I am not taking that away. I'm used to dealing with straw men on these boards, but you're hurling an entire straw zoo at me. Socializing in DF? Seriously???

Re: your last couple of sentences - are you trying to win some sort of award for being obnoxious? FWIW I quite like Mt. Gulg. And I don't fall on my face time and time again. Even if I did, wtf does it have to do with you? Why is a cornerstone of toxic gaming philosophy being obsessed with how others interact with the game, and dreaming up bizarre arguments for why this is "bad for the game"? There is absolutely nothing exclusionary in what I have suggested. The entire point is to include everyone in the wonderful experience of progressing the MSQ, rather than have them leave the game because some people cannot understand why they are less-skilled than them.

I realize this thread has rambled on a bit, but you don't seem to have absorbed any of the salient features.

To misquote Livia, you have made me broth.

[Mawlzy]

I think I may just have had a moment of clarity.

It has always confused me that a part of the player base in FFXIV is so insistent that everyone should meet the same threshold of PvE competence. It's absent in most games I've played, where skilled players actually seem to be pleased they are good at something, rather than developing this peculiar rage towards less-skilled players. The devs of most games also accept skill variations as a matter of course, and accommodate all players through in-game options.

This is doubly confusing to me in FFXIV because - and maybe this is just an assumption on my part - everyone accepts the PvE is crap. [Source: this forum.]

So I asked myself, why do people with 84 clears of CAR, or those who grind leveling roulette, get so infuriated with those who limit their PvE engagement as much as possible?

And it occurred to me that, somewhere buried in their highly-skilled, yet insecure gaming minds, they are aware that spending 20 hours/week in FFXIV PvE is a colossal waste of time.

And had the devs of this game preferred Iron Chef over Takeshi's Castle, we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place.

[Eesh]

I'm sorry but I can't imagine how you can send stuff like that and not have me assume anything but vitriol. I came into this asking you what you liked about the game, you gave it to me and I interpolated from that. If misgivings were made then they were incidental and accidental. But the intent was at the core to understand.

All I've seen in this conversation is how fed up with this game you are. That it doesn't make you feel like it does for other people. And as much as I'd like to see you elevated to a position where you can enjoy it like I do, I don't see it with the current mindset you have.

This conversation has been mentally draining on both ends it seems. There's no real need to continue it I think.

Hopefully you can enjoy your little slice of the game that doesn't piss you off to no end. And even more hopefully there's some reprieve in future that allows less of it to do so.

o/

[Mawlzy]

I'm sorry but I can't imagine how you can send stuff like that and not have me assume anything but vitriol. I came into this asking you what you liked about the game, you gave it to me and I interpolated from that. If misgivings were made then they were incidental and accidental. But the intent was at the core to understand.

All I've seen in this conversation is how fed up with this game you are. That it doesn't make you feel like it does for other people. And as much as I'd like to see you elevated to a position where you can enjoy it like I do, I don't see it with the current mindset you have.

This conversation has been mentally draining on both ends it seems. There's no real need to continue it I think.

Hopefully you can enjoy your little slice of the game that doesn't piss you off to no end. And even more hopefully there's some reprieve in future that allows less of it to do so.

o/

Yes, as I indicated, I am angry. Vitriol confirmed.

Prefacing your broadsides aimed at me personally with "I'm sorry..." doesn't actually excuse the rudeness. Apology not accepted, even if you are British and use that frontal adverbial reflexively.

Here is the situation as I see it:

Those who are good at PvE are frustrated with those who are not. They do not wish to see the game made "ever easier" because less-skilled players are struggling and would like to progress the MSQ.

This concern is reasonable, and why I personally never lobby for easier content as a straight replacement. I do not wish to take away content that others enjoy. The only solution I can think of is this dual-track idea. If you have a better one, please feel to share it so the devs can ignore it too.

My "little slice" of the game includes PvP, Gold Saucer, hunts, FATEs, deep dungeons, exploratory zones, most of the MSQ, crafting, gathering, decorating my house, and hanging out with my friends. The lack of new content in every area other than raiding has been an irritant, but apparently it will eventually be "my turn" as Thancred might say.

And despite your characterization of my stunning incompetence at PvE, I have somehow managed to level every job to cap. But I'm just fine with 710 gear. Watching "the number go up" is as interesting as drying paint to me.

On balance. I'm happier with the game than the players. Which does create issues in an MMO.

[shiftweave]

I fundamentally disagree with this dual-track difficulty idea.

Firstly, Square is already struggling to put out enough content for everyone. Increasing the dungeon load would make this worse.

Secondly, no one would queue for the harder difficulty unless it had significantly higher rewards, and I don't think Square would ever do that.

The actual issue here is that dungeons are incredibly boring for a significant part of the playerbase, and yet they are mandatory. You can say "just do Extreme", but the MSQ is required to unlock the next trial. You can say "just do Savage", but the tomestones are required to keep up with the gear grind. You can say "just do Ultimate", but current ultimates require even more tomestone farming and old ultimates require target farming dungeons like lunar subterranne. And if you ever want to bring a new job into an ultimate, get ready to spend ten hours wasting your time again.

I don't care that people can't do the dungeons. I care that yoshi-p is forcing me to do dungeons, and then also forcing me to queue with people who find dungeons challenging. It's an irritant on top of the core problem. And don't say "just queue with your friends" because my friends also find the dungeons boring as sin. If I could press a button that would ban me from duty finder but cap my tomestones for the rest of time, I would.

[Mawlzy]

I fundamentally disagree with this dual-track difficulty idea.

Firstly, Square is already struggling to put out enough content for everyone. Increasing the dungeon load would make this worse.

Secondly, no one would queue for the harder difficulty unless it had significantly higher rewards, and I don't think Square would ever do that.

The actual issue here is that dungeons are incredibly boring for a significant part of the playerbase, and yet they are mandatory. You can say "just do Extreme", but the MSQ is required to unlock the next trial. You can say "just do Savage", but the tomestones are required to keep up with the gear grind. You can say "just do Ultimate", but current ultimates require even more tomestone farming and old ultimates require target farming dungeons like lunar subterranne. And if you ever want to bring a new job into an ultimate, get ready to spend ten hours wasting your time again.

I don't care that people can't do the dungeons. I care that yoshi-p is forcing me to do dungeons, and then also forcing me to queue with people who find dungeons challenging. It's an irritant on top of the core problem. And don't say "just queue with your friends" because my friends also find the dungeons boring as sin. If I could press a button that would ban me from duty finder but cap my tomestones for the rest of time, I would.

Interesting. If good players find the MSQ dungeons boring, would they not find harder ones interesting and thus queue for them? Or is your point more that dungeon design is boring in itself, but you feel compelled to queue for them to grind tomes?

I'd certainly like to see more interesting dungeons.

[shiftweave]

I think you're underestimating how hard a good player team outperforms current dungeon design. Our characters are tuned to be able to take on and complete Ultimates, which require you to bring your classes to the edge of their capabilities. If you bring those same capabilities to bear against a dungeon, you are never under any point in danger.

A harder dungeon will never be interesting enough to queue for its own sake until it reaches Criterion level, and those take significantly more resources - they won't make Crit versions of all the MSQ dungeons. If they did I would certainly give them a shot. Those wouldn't solve the tomestone issue though, since I wouldn't want to do them 5 times a week like Expert roulette asks.

Even if they did that, though, I would do the easy version to progress story. There's competing motivations here. I want the story done because it's generally required to continue moving onwards with the game. I've lost interest with the visual novel contained with FFXIV and I just want to continue down the excellent raiding track. At least personally, content loses a lot of points when it's required for me to do it. A brutal recent example is that they released an excellent new content type - CAR - which I should have loved, but then they released it on Christmas eve for god knows what reason and also gave it pieces that significantly outperformed the healer 730 which had mandatory piety beforehand.