Dungeons are becoming style over substance.

[Velnora]

Giving players the illusion that something is not linear will do much to alleviate the bad design. A lot of video games design levels so that even though it's linear, it appears not to be and so give the players a sense that they are freely able to explore.

I wish they hired some developers over at From Software. Those folks know how to level design.

[anguel]

wow ...
so lets resume !
some want devs to stop doing flashy dungeon and focus more on dungeon (maze like) BUT
also ppl (in-game) dont bother checking dungeon and always ALWAYS take optimal route ! (making for themself a ... linear dungeon !)
(i ve never seen anyone ever stopped for even a sec to read lore related note on the ground in dungeon, because you know ... no time !)
some others dont like the "idea" of having to pull from wall to wall, but will regardless of that still ask tank to ... pull wall to wall ... because "gotta go fast !!"
ooh forgot ! dungeon looks dull and all look the same

so
flashy dungeon = no > linear = no go, want maze but if maze, player will do linear pathfinding, because of that all dungeon look teh same and are dull, and need be more "flashy"

ouch really dont wanna be in the feet of the dev at SE that is making dungeon for ff14 lol must be having an absolute horrible time

[KageTokage]

Amaurot was what I'd consider a gold standard for dungeon design in that it has non-standard trash mobs with the tethering bombs/dark sprites and environmental hazards that make you have to pay attention to what's going on more then usual.

I think it's mostly the former that needs to be addressed because the vast majority of dungeons have mobs that only use basic telegraphed AoEs and don't even threaten anyone other then the tank most of the time.

[MonteCristo]

This needs more attention

[Shurrikhan]

Tbh, I don't mind linear dungeons. I also wouldn't mind freeform dungeons so long as there are indeed multiple competitive paths to be taken (and no matter how freeform they at first look, they will streamline into paths), but ultimately it's just a matter of having things to engage with as I go.

We enter as combat classes, so I see little point in any puzzle elements that wouldn't typically at least synergize with combat (even if just by increasing cognitive load in trying to do the puzzle while fighting).

Give me trash with some actual difficulty. Give me environmental mechanics. Give me stuff to actually do, to actually optimize (and, the cognitive load of which can't by run #4 and beyond be reduced to a small portion of what it was in, say, our second run).

[Mhiro]

To be Frank, the problem lies with the people who think the simplest dungeon tasks are hard. I can't count the amount of people who, on the second boss of Snowcloak, try to brute force it because they can't be assed to do the mechanics. There is also a point where dungeon gimmicks become tedious for the vets who don't care. And it's funny because sometimes its them who are also calling for more dungeons like what we had in ARR/HW.

Personally I would love those. I enjoy interesting mechanics and it's fun teaching new players about them.

[Red-thunder]

The dungeons you're pointing out as the pinnacle of ARR dungeon design are nigh-universally loathed as the worst possible roulette results.

Wonder if this opinion is still mainstream today!

[Sivante]

Wonder if this opinion is still mainstream today!

I didn't think Necromancer was a class option but here you are, bringing back the dead.

[Shurrikhan]

I didn't think Necromancer was a class option but here you are, bringing back the dead.

I mean, it's not as if the main point of the thread lost any relevance in the last three years of just being further evidenced.

[Sivante]

I mean, it's not as if the main point of the thread lost any relevance in the last three years of just being further evidenced.

You know what? You're right. I rescind my statement. Necro away, the topic does still hold kernels of validity. My apologies.