#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]I gotta ask though, do you think Sage has higher potential or not? Because you seem to be saying both[...]

Apologies if I seem to be saying both, but no. When I implied that SCH having better potential, I was speaking of their HPS, mitigative, and design front. This can be seen from the numbers they given to both healers. Such as:

1. Kerachole lasts 15s with 500p HoT, more flexible and easier to use. Sacred Soil lasts for 17-18s with 600p HoT and is arguably clunkier due to the nature of ground targeting actions + requiring allies to be within the bound of the AoE.
2. E.Prog II is 460 effective potency, 1s faster, and instant AoE heal. Succor is 560 effective potency, 1s slower, and needs to be cast.
3. Panhaima is potentially 1,200 effective potency that goes out within a single weave window (so press and forget) and does not require you think of your position (ever since they gave it 30y radius) but has a very limited time period of which you need to be taking damage in order to capitalize them which usually ends up being overheal. As opposed to Seraph-Consolation whose potencies from 2 charges amounts up to 1,000 effective potency, but you have the agency to decide which instance of damage you want to deal with per charges within 20s, and has effective duration up to 49s seconds.
4. Energy Drain and its implication to SCH's gameplay. This one niche damage optimization option allows SCH to indirectly controls their HPS output. Don't need that stack? ED away. What does SGE have? Uhh.. yeah, just throw that Druochole to keep mana happy (lol).
5. Addersgall vs Aetherflow. One does not require to be managed actively to keep it rolling but you are capped to 4-5 burst uses... if you need it somehow. The other requires SCH to consciously hit Aetherflow to keep them rolling but they can potentially do 'aetherflow superdump' up to 6 stacks (or 9 if you include dissipation) if that's even needed.

Before they expand the radiuses, Physis II (used to be 20y centered on the SGE) vs Whispering Dawn also demonstrated the same "trading potential for ease of use"-syndrome.

[...]At any rate, I can't really get behind the idea that its SE that doesn't want differences, given the amount of complaining about differences that happens[...]

I probably shouldn't have worded it "SE doesn't want difference". For that I apologize for the confusion. What I should be saying instead was "SE is afraid to create that difference". They have demonstrated over the course of several years that they're unable to parse why XYZ feedbacks are happening from the first place.

I.e. People complain about -that one SCH- who spent their AF stacks for ED for whatever reason (playing skillfully, chasing funny numbers, or just bad at making correct decision). Their response? Creates a proto-SGE that was SCH 5.0 only for them to give us back ED after a massive backlash and... what a surprise, necro'd that variant of SCH in 6.0 but gave them a different coat of paint & call them "SGE". What a waste of design space, IMHO.

What else? Oh right, AST! It's an RNG'y job at its inception but then people start complaining about RNG... in an RNG'y job. Their response? ShB, EW, and finally DT AST. As the icing on the top, people also mentioned wanting varied cards to play and manipulate. Their response? Here you go 4th Essential Dignity, 2nd Exaltation, 3rd Celestial Intersection. Oh don't worry, they're all card VFX! Have fun!

EDIT: Heck, even that one media tour build where SGE was shown been able to stack their E.Dosis III and E.Dyskrasia? I'm willing to bet that's what they actually wanted to implement. It's only because certain somebody made a comment how they will feel 'pressured' to be keeping both DoT up in raids due to being a gain for... what, 80p per minute? Even single AF stack spent for Energy Drain would immediately outclasses that and they worry about that? But alas, SE caved in and effectively made E.Dyskrasia totally useless button outside nichest of the niche case of uses.

[YarnMage48]

snip [/I]

Sure, I see what you mean in terms of raw heal output from single abilities. And getting to use, ah, what's it called? You guarantee the single target crit shield and then give that shield to everyone. That's OP. Brilliant. I love that scholars can do that. Very scholarly. Panhaima is one of those skills that's great for multi-hit stacks or a multiple instances of damage in a short period, but can be hard to use otherwise. Although, baring any better options, I will often utilize the heal. So like, in Wicked Thunder, I'd pop it for Witch Hunt 2, and if it times out right, everyone would get 1 shield for their witch hunt damage, and then 4 stacks worth of heal. Was that the most optimal way to use Panhaima? Not really. Was it more optimal than just not using it? For sure for sure. But at any rate, even its hard to find a good use for it sometimes, I really like having that unique skill. Oh but, getting to use AF stacks for damage? definitely a plus. I mean I'm probably not hurting for the MP if I'm not healing anyways, but man, leaving addersgall capped for a while just feels bad. I do like the way it "forces" you to engage with that system, rather than SCH having the option to ignore their AF heals and just use ED. But. Leaving it capped is no fun.

But its discussions like these that prevent me from comprehending the idea that "they're basically the same class", you know? When you really dig into it, they're so different in how you manage resources and utilize skills. And they have different skills that are great in different situations. So again, the idea that Sage is just worse Scholar is... just not true. They're so different and both so great. At least from my perspective.

I think you might be right on the money with saying the SE is afraid to create more differences. I haven't followed the healer lore long enough to know what specific scholar incident you're referring to, nor can I really track with the class changes throughout patches, but I think we are largely saying the same things as far as "SE gives us differences and we complain". I think the hardest issue they face is that even if they make changes to please one group of players, in doing so they are going to massively upset other players. So then they get stuck playing whack-a-mole trying to placate different groups of players. Try to please all, please none. But of course every single one of us is 100% correct on what is wrong and what needs to be done to fix it... I don't envy SE, trying to navigate this.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Fyi, SCH at the beginning of 5.0 had their Energy Drain removed alongside many other healers (mostly dps) actions. This is usually the point where a lot people refer to when they speak of great lobotomization of healers. But depending on the person you've talked to, some may even think StB being the start of all (hello stormblood lilies lol). That being said, removal of ED on SCH 'broke' the job. You've mentioned that it sucks to leave addersgall capped? SCH's AF too in that short period. Their reasoning was to allow SCH to focus more onto their healing duties... well look what they actually cooked up: not actually enough damage to heal, AF overcapped. Either ignore the stacks or dump all those overhealing Lustrates. Wow, great design choice (it's not). They eventually gave ED back.

I know you said you have different opinion about SGE/SCH differences which is totally fair, but to players like myself, the decision to necro 5.0 SCH into 6.0 SGE... just why? If you want to play today's SGE without actually being SGE, you can already do the same as a SCH since ShB: remove Energy Drain from your hotbar. That's it. Why waste an entire design space to create a brand new job that is more of a carbon copy of already existing job? They said it will be a healer that heals through DPS'ing and what they cooked up is Kardia that barely matters and is a shadow of SCH's old Embrace targeting plus clunkier? The only iteration of SGE that comes close to their vision ironically appears in the game 1 major patch later: 6.1 PvP SGE, and has been keeping to that vision closely to even today better than PvE's iteration.

EDIT: Also just sayin', SCHs who ignores their AF heals under all circumstances are straight up bad SCHs.

[YarnMage48]

Fyi, SCH at the beginning of 5.0 had their Energy Drain removed alongside many other healers (mostly dps) actions. This is usually the point where a lot people refer to when they speak of great lobotomization of healers. But depending on the person you've talked to, some may even think StB being the start of all (hello stormblood lilies lol). That being said, removal of ED on SCH 'broke' the job. You've mentioned that it sucks to leave addersgall capped? SCH's AF too in that short period. Their reasoning was to allow SCH to focus more onto their healing duties... well look what they actually cooked up: not actually enough damage to heal, AF overcapped. Either ignore the stacks or dump all those overhealing Lustrates. Wow, great design choice (it's not). They eventually gave ED back.

I know you said you have different opinion about SGE/SCH differences which is totally fair, but to players like myself, the decision to necro 5.0 SCH into 6.0 SGE... just why? If you want to play today's SGE without actually being SGE, you can already do the same as a SCH since ShB: remove Energy Drain from your hotbar. That's it. Why waste an entire design space to create a brand new job that is more of a carbon copy of already existing job? They said it will be a healer that heals through DPS'ing and what they cooked up is Kardia that barely matters and is a shadow of SCH's old Embrace targeting plus clunkier? The only iteration of SGE that comes close to their vision ironically appears in the game 1 major patch later: 6.1 PvP SGE, and has been keeping to that vision closely to even today better than PvE's iteration.

EDIT: Also just sayin', SCHs who ignores their AF heals under all circumstances are straight up bad SCHs.

I mean if nothing else, this goes to show that they tried something, it didn't work, and so they reversed it and then tried something else. That is, any way you slice it, a good thing. They are trying to make improvements.

And oh boy. I am pretty sure that Kardia matters. I feel the absence of Kardia when I play other healers. It would be fun if Kardia did more, but we did get some of that with Philosophia.

And I still feel like there are enough unique differences in skills and playstyle that its not accurate to say that SCH without ED is the same as SGE. But, I don't think we're going to agree on that one. And that's ok! Just don't make fun of me for playing "scholar for babies" and I'll be a happy little Sage.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

I mean if nothing else, this goes to show that they tried something, it didn't work, and so they reversed it and then tried something else. That is, any way you slice it, a good thing. They are trying to make improvements[...]

Wait until you know at the dawn of 6.0 launch when they openly says "We don't know what to do with Scholars" in a Live Letter while also accounting the immense number of feedbacks they've received up to that point. Just another disappointment that this team has demonstrated.

[...]And I still feel like there are enough unique differences in skills and playstyle that its not accurate to say that SCH without ED is the same as SGE. But, I don't think we're going to agree on that one. And that's ok! Just don't make fun of me for playing "scholar for babies" and I'll be a happy little Sage.

That we are. I also don't think anybody was making fun of people who likes current SGE as it is. At the end of the day, my greatest issue with SGE as a whole is they weren't what we were promised to get & it didn't have enough distinction to make me feel like I'm playing a different barrier healer. A lot my SCH/SGE hotkeys are mapped very similarly:

• Physis - Whispering Dawn
• Kerachole - Sacred Soil
• Ixochole - Indomitability
• Taurochole - Excogitation
• Rhizomata - Recitation
• Krasis - Protraction
• Druochole - Lustrate
• Panhaima - Summon Seraph/Consolation
• Philosophia - Seraphism
• Phlegma I/II/III - Ruin II
• Psyche - Aetherflow

That's a lot 'bread and butter' buttons covered already, not incl. their fillers and role actions but I'm not going to look at them for the moment. My personal expectation when they introduced the job in their 5.4 teaser was more like today's SGE but without the entire addersgall gauge with more robustly designed Kardia system. PvP SGE is one step ahead in that front: Dosis III kardia triggers the maintenance regen HoT. E.Dosis III triggers E.Diag shield on Kardion partner, which can be broken to give Toxikon II that deals 2 times (at its inception) the amount of regular Dosis III casts.

Now what would I kill to have E.Pneuma, E.Phlegma, with all differing Kardion effect... hahahahah fat wish, lmao.

[YarnMage48]

....not incl. their fillers and role actions but I'm not going to look at them for the moment. [/SIZE]

Ah I see you aren't going to look at the things that make them different, so naturally, you don't see the differences. Yeah that checks.

[TheDustyOne]

Ah I see you aren't going to look at the things that make them different, so naturally, you don't see the differences. Yeah that checks.

The fillers are even less unique compared to the healers than what Rein has talked about; there's a reason I refer to all of them as Glaroilificosis. The only difference they have is the name and slight potency variations, there's no gameplay difference between spamming Broil and spamming Dosis and refreshing Bio and Eukrasian Dosis.

And Role actions live up to their name, every healer has the exact same ones.

SGE really is just SCH without the Fairy. There is nuance in their differences, but the decision making is 95% similar.

[ASkellington]

Ah I see you aren't going to look at the things that make them different, so naturally, you don't see the differences. Yeah that checks.

Its not that we're ignoring the differences. The differences are not enough doubly so because SGE isn't what was advertised nor promised.

If Kardia was an actual mechanic instead of a set and forget buff to heal the tank, if SGE actually had to heal through doing DPS and had limited healing options where it could heal without doing damage then I will accept it being different from SCH enough to be its own healing class. Until then, its a SCH clone.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Ah I see you aren't going to look at the things that make them different, so naturally, you don't see the differences. Yeah that checks.

Genuinely asking, what makes their filler different?

1. Dosis - Broil
2. Eukrasia Dosis - Bios
3. Dyskrasia - Art of War

Is it Eukrasia..? Is it because I need to press an extra button to use GCD shield or something? If you mean the 'extra step' of having to press Eukrasia to apply DoT...well I will not presume to know of you. But in my perspective, it just turns 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 into 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 (one extra press of [1] hotkey per half a minute). I will still look at the DoT timer to judge when I should be refreshing my DoT. Same exact number. This isn't just for SGE/SCH btw, as the regen healer are also equally in the rut on this front.

Is it the actual healing GCD spells? On that front, I also don't feel different enough, even until my last high end experience from last tier. Taking the infamous p10s example, my worst run still had me cast a total of 19 GCDs for heals out of 199 GCD casts. Now if I were a SGE in that run, I'd get to press Eukrasia 19 extra times, meaning I'll have 38/219 GCD spent on non-Dosis...? Yaayyy...??? What if this is a smoother encounter or non-high ends? Perish the thought, I will probably not even touching Eukrasia outside to refresh DoT thanks to how abundant their HPS is.

Or is it two target gain to use AoE on SCH while it's three target gain to use AoE on 3 other healers?

What about role action? Depending on how much piety you have, 7000-7800 MP are usually the sweet spot to start using Lucid... there is no difference between healers. Surecast? Same. Swiftcast? Again, same; either save for raise or play it risky by swiftcasting Glaroilficosis? Rescue? Lol.

I genuinely can't think anything else.

TheDustyOne nailed it though. Simply put, it's the decision making, they are too similar to one another.

[Supersnow845]

Ah I see you aren't going to look at the things that make them different, so naturally, you don't see the differences. Yeah that checks.

The problem is the things you are selling as “differences” aren’t MEANINGFULLY different

Is kardia being a buff you can pass around that works off of your damage GCD different to the fairy casting embrace on the lowest HP party member……..yes

Is it meaningfully different in that it induces you to make different decisions………no

And that’s where the problems arise with comparisons of SCH and SGE. Their skills are just different enough to warrant different tooltips but aren’t different enough to actually induce you to make meaningfully different decisions. Like sure panhaima is 5 stacks of shields and only pure heals you for unused stacks while seraph is 2 stacks of a shield and heal but in practice where the SGE uses panhaima the SCH will use seraph which makes the skills not really have a meaningful difference. The only skills that stand out are the unique skills of which SCH is the only one that doesn’t have analogues in SGE’s kit; namely illumination, the sprint part of expedient and deployment

Compare this to say AST and WHM. AST doesn’t have a “rapture” equivalent where it can dump out on demand AOE healing functionally whenever it wants, but in exchange WHM doesn’t really have a collective or an opposition equivalent as WHM isn’t great at sustained regens

Looking for minute differences that don’t meaningfully alter gameplay is rather pointless in the grand scheme of things