Apyaahi was right. DT Final Role Quest Spoilers

[Supersnow845]

She was wrong; but she made decent points about the flawed nature of the state in the game

That’s not really the problem though

The problem is how hilariously tone deaf the entire quest is. I don’t care how badly the antagonist is you simply do not make fun of a homeless person who had their only shelter stolen then try to act like said person is the butt of a joke that everyone else gets but are stringing the victim along on

It’s one of the few quests where I 100% don’t agree with the actions of the WOL (the other being the 60-70 SAM quests). I have no idea why they thought it was good writing to have the WOL being a flat out asshole to this lady (no matter how flawed her ideals are and the things she has done) because it runs contrary to the WOL’s principles

And during this whole time it plays the god damn circus music like this isn’t discussing serious topics like a person being victimised when she fell through the cracks in the system and showing (accidentally) flaws in the WOL’s rigid adherence to the current power system

Like what the actual fuck were people supposed to get out of this quest at least with DT I could see what the writers were going for with tone and writing (even if it fell flat) but I genuinely have no idea what I was supposed to get out of this other than maybe “hahaha idiot who wanted to change the system is an idiot incrementalism good” but also I’m not a 70 year old Japanese man

[Dikatis]

Well, no one is really arguing in favor of Apyaahis commanders - they were self serving egoistical assholes that did harm their surroundings. Capturing them and preventing their schemes was still very much in character and aligned with the morals of the world.

She hand-picked them to aid in leading her organization expressly dedicated to performing global acts of terrorism in an effort to topple the nations of the world and entrusted them with stealing relics of enormous power to enable their plans. When it's pointed out that said underlings had no real loyalty to her cause and just did what they wanted, and she praises them for this.

Even before this, she thoughtlessly enters one of the most popular restaurants and social centers and openly discusses her goals in broad daylight. She doesn't even order anything to keep up the ruse of just being another customer. Her motives were always going to be kind of stupid. Even idiots can make salient points and just because she makes some worthwhile criticisms doesn't make her suddenly more understandable or reasonable.

And honestly? That's kind of realistic. Not every person who's done awful things is going to have grand reason for doing them. They may pretty it up with flowery prose, but a lot of people are just self-centered jerks who don't care for others.

[Chasingstars]

She hand-picked them to aid in leading her organization expressly dedicated to performing global acts of terrorism in an effort to topple the nations of the world and entrusted them with stealing relics of enormous power to enable their plans. When it's pointed out that said underlings had no real loyalty to her cause and just did what they wanted, and she praises them for this.

Even before this, she thoughtlessly enters one of the most popular restaurants and social centers and openly discusses her goals in broad daylight. She doesn't even order anything to keep up the ruse of just being another customer. Her motives were always going to be kind of stupid. Even idiots can make salient points and just because she makes some worthwhile criticisms doesn't make her suddenly more understandable or reasonable.

And honestly? That's kind of realistic. Not every person who's done awful things is going to have grand reason for doing them. They may pretty it up with flowery prose, but a lot of people are just self-centered jerks who don't care for others.

That and she actually has a clean slate at first after her exile, her totem isn't stolen like all of the others. Instead of using her totem smartly, she just sends the animals to attack people to try and "fix" society. If she was smart and this was the real world, she would seek to use her totem in whatever way possible to earn as much money as possible to buy whatever she wants, live however she wants, and make getting arrested into a slap on the wrist. She notices all the problems with various city states, but she does nothing about the problems, just becoming another problem.

[Mawlzy]

Yes, you are precisely proving the point i am trying to make - why do we have a group of villains doing villain stuff, and suddenly there is someone with relatable (and fixable, mind you) issues who then gets written to say and believe asinine things like that?

Precisely so. She makes very cogent arguments about the oppressive nature of government and commerce, rooted in personal experience, then turns into Bunny Barbie, twirls her hair around her little finger, and says something stupid. Ha bloody ha.

[Mawlzy]

That and she actually has a clean slate at first after her exile, her totem isn't stolen like all of the others. Instead of using her totem smartly, she just sends the animals to attack people to try and "fix" society. If she was smart and this was the real world, she would seek to use her totem in whatever way possible to earn as much money as possible to buy whatever she wants, live however she wants, and make getting arrested into a slap on the wrist. She notices all the problems with various city states, but she does nothing about the problems, just becoming another problem.

Uhm. You didn't really understand her philosophy, huh?

[Erzaa]

She wasn't right. She was decidedly wrong.

She's a psychopath who hired other psychopaths to cause havoc and harm innocent people.

All her talk about freedom, and her salient points about how oligarchs rule over the majority, are just excuses for her own selfish desires. She's even told that, if she really wants to enact change, she could work within the system to build support and have the laws changed. And it goes right over her head.

Had she ever been successful, she would've caused even more suffering than the current leaders.

If anything, the WOL expresses true freedom throughout the whole run of the game. We, as adventurers, go wherever the wind takes us, see and experience things nobody else ever will, travel and explore distant lands, and we still manage to respect the rule of law and understand their customs and cultures of the societies we visit. That's what I would've liked to tell her, but the dialogue choices wouldn't let me, that, I'm a little miffed about.

[Supersnow845]

She wasn't right. She was decidedly wrong.

She's a psychopath who hired other psychopaths to cause havoc and harm innocent people.

All her talk about freedom, and her salient points about how oligarchs rule over the majority, are just excuses for her own selfish desires. She's even told that, if she really wants to enact change, she could work within the system to build support and have the laws changed. And it goes right over her head.

Had she ever been successful, she would've caused even more suffering than the current leaders.

If anything, the WOL expresses true freedom throughout the whole run of the game. We, as adventurers, go wherever the wind takes us, see and experience things nobody else ever will, travel and explore distant lands, and we still manage to respect the rule of law and understand their customs and cultures of the societies we visit. That's what I would've liked to tell her, but the dialogue choices wouldn't let me, that, I'm a little miffed about.

Yeah our “freedom” allowed us to put down a (completely justified) peasant rebellion in kugane in support of a (corrupt) oligarch because we were buds with the (local thug gang) sekiseigumi and this was presented as the correct option

She was definitely in the wrong but let’s not pretend the WOL doesn’t veer a little too close to “weapon to maintain the status quo” a little too often

[Valence]

Her motivations were completely self-serving. For all her talk of freedom and tyranny of the state, it only served to have her followers become their worst possible selves, becoming the very tyrants she claims she wants to overthrow. All she wants is to be able to due whatever she wants with no consequence, no matter who it screws over. Freedom that harms others is not freedom at all.

Maybe it could've been written with a bit more nuance, I'll allow. However, I think the idea was was to make seem sympathetic at first, but once you clear out the honeyed words and talking points, her real reasons for doing what she does are stupid, and maybe you wonder if you were stupid for falling for it.

This is exactly why it felt offensive, because it turned the causes served by the character into a joke and bad satire. Those villains and Apyaahi herself especially are essentially written as gigantic strawmen to directly paint the causes in question in a bad light by ultimately saying that their defenders are just served by self interest and are not well in the head, only to have the WoL not only witness the side of the law laughing their asses off when one of them gets literally disrobed and humiliated, but also drop lines condemning "people like them / of their ilk" as irredeemable.

Well, no one is really arguing in favor of Apyaahis commanders - they were self serving egoistical assholes that did harm their surroundings. Capturing them and preventing their schemes was still very much in character and aligned with the morals of the world.

With Apyaahi, its a bit different - we start up by learning more about her, in her case actually relatable, issues. Nothing about wanting people to laugh to death, or sew chaos. No, she simply did want to be master of her own fate.
The writers then decided to employ a very haphazard way of justifying the protagonist antagonize her, by making the wronged party do something so absolutely absurd and destructive that not stopping them is the wrong thing to do. I've read a good comparison somewhere, where in one of the marvel series a group of humans had their homes seized, so in retaliation they blew up a hospital. Thats the kind of hamfisted approach here that just feels wrong, especially considering that the WoL, who is usually championing for allied societies and those down on their luck, is suddenly devoid of any empathy.

There would have been better ways of handling that scenario, surely. No, instead we get a laugh track haha so funny.

I do agree but I still have several issues with the commanders themselves. Some of them were absolute villains like the Ninja garlean operative, and that one felt particularly rotten, and somewhat competent to boot (he managed to deceive and kill the mentor of the NPC quest trailing him in cold blood). Some of them however really felt mentally ill, like the healer poisoning girl or especially the superhero guy of the caster questline. Those two quests, especially the caster one, was excruciatingly painful for me to trudge through, because it truly felt that they were mocking his mental illness and delusions, and it felt so pathetic that they even had to disrobe the guy and put him naked for all the landsguard to laugh at him, and nobody batted an eye. Considering how cops tend to behave in real life with certain minorities or specific matters, it left a really bad taste in my month that the WoL was all fine watching and silently condoning this.

I wrote about this back then and I'm really annoyed to see that they double down into this direction with Apiyaahi.

[Erzaa]

Yeah our “freedom” allowed us to put down a (completely justified) peasant rebellion in kugane in support of a (corrupt) oligarch because we were buds with the (local thug gang) sekiseigumi and this was presented as the correct option

She was definitely in the wrong but let’s not pretend the WOL doesn’t veer a little too close to “weapon to maintain the status quo” a little too often

Oh please... What a stretch. The sekiseigumi are law enforcement, they don't make the laws, they enforce them.

Corruption exists in every facet of society, that doesn't give anyone the right to go around committing murders. Ugetsu was an extremist who committed atrocities. Next thing you'll tell me, Luigi Mangione was justified too.

And this comes back to the WOL was there for Musosai and Momozigo, not to change the way Oriental society operates.

[Dorito_Burrito]

Well at least now Apyaahi won't have to pay for food or lodgings am I right fellas?