Why do casual players seem entitled to cosmetic items added in game?

[Kaurhz]

It is us versus then though for the following reason.
In my experience it's always,
"We a want more challenging 'casual' content."
Casual content= I dint need to organise dates. I can cancel at last moment without telling anyone and feeling bad. I dint need to join discord of 100s of people with their cliques and hidden rules. I dint have to jump on voice and deal with people's ACT bullshit if I've got no patience for it that day.
Challenging content = something that will at least kill my character, and take me 30 clears to get close to perfect at. (Wiping is optional for me. Dint care if I do or don't as long I if I'm with randos I make prog every other day I attempt it)

But we don't get that. It's 3 wall to walls. 3 bosses. OP gear. We basically 'never' 'NEVER' wipe except on day 0. And we almost never KO. Often not even on day 0. It's random dungeons that don't use your full abilities, speed run trash mobs. Or 1 of 3 expert dungeons. Alliances you only see 1/3 of bits mechanics.
Peak casual content is Alpha 3.0 normal. Best casual content in the game. You can carry, on average be carried, occasionally wipe. And still kill yourself in a second if your finger up too badly.

But like I say we don't get that.

So we say can you make X harder.
We don't get that

So we say can you make y a bit easier and more party of DF friendly.
Not only do we not get that, but we get "ultimate raiders" chilling in with 'no you can't make my extremes easier!.

Then we get "well I don't ultimate, I dont do savage, and I have loads of content farming Extreemes"
But then you find out ("well yes have done PF savage in the past." Or even "well yes I have done ultimate.")

So we can't have anything. You've got your content all the way to ultimate and your keeping it and we get nothing. More 3x3 dungeons and OP alliance cheese fests where you don't even get to see the mechanics.

There is an easy solution. Stop syncing stuff to end expansion. Sync it to day 0+10 ilvls. Job done. Move on. Everything. So that for everything.

My worst gear in Chaotic was 714-16. Mele. I was second lowest HP higher than one healer but not both.
My best job PLD 722, always the lowest tank even with roast chicken. They are all savage players. Pretty much.

To be honest, everything you've said here only supports the idea that it is a player vs company issue rather than a player vs player (casual vs hardcore player) issue. A lot of hardcore players I've found would actually prefer something else, because whilst they have got the bulk of the content this expansion, it is still ultimately only weekly objectives they are logging in to do. Granted, it is a heck lot more than what casuals currently have, but this is not because of hardcore players, it is because even to do this after a decade of development, SE still doesn't understand the actual issues that players have.

[Gurgeh]

To be honest, everything you've said here only supports the idea that it is a player vs company issue rather than a player vs player (casual vs hardcore player) issue. A lot of hardcore players I've found would actually prefer something else, because whilst they have got the bulk of the content this expansion, it is still ultimately only weekly objectives they are logging in to do. Granted, it is a heck lot more than what casuals currently have, but this is not because of hardcore players, it is because even to do this after a decade of development, SE still doesn't understand the actual issues that players have.

Then please, 'especially' if your ultimate raiders, just back casuals up even if they are asking for easier savage, or stay out of the discussion. Please. That means changing human nature which isn't going to happen. But, yeah we are not going to stay quiet if ultimate raiders can't either.
Did me personally you could just ask them to stagger savage MUCH further away from normal content so we can get prepared. (No I dint care about crafters I'm afraid, given them the best glams in the game to craft or something. Add a husbandry crafter, and snow them to craft mounts.)
I want to raid. I dint want to craft. I played the game every day for four years. Bought 2 houses. I dint RP it buy mounts and stuff and I still could afford crafted gear. I played a game I enjoyed every day for four years. Dont tell me I'm playing it wrong, and needed to suffer it for four years, if I dint have enough Gil to raid.

or DONT LET ME GET THROUGH FIVE EXPANSIONS BEFORE NEEDING TO USE (find out about) CRAFTED AND PENTA AND ENHANCING MATS. At least then I can start preparing at the pace I need to. Flipping release raid gear at the end of the last expansion. (Dont tell me that's impossible. They can tweak the stats)

[Voidmage]

Then please, 'especially' if your ultimate raiders, just back casuals up even if they are asking for easier savage, or stay out of the discussion. Please. That means changing human nature which isn't going to happen. But, yeah we are not going to stay quiet if ultimate raiders can't either.

There are raiders backing you up even in these very threads. Heck most raiders are completely fine and decent people who just want to have fun be it casual or harder content.
General consens IS that DT is absolutely lacking in content that is not raiding.
Raiders say it, content creators say it but lets be honest it doesn't matter if you are backed up because the devs just do what they want anyway. I would bet money that they will not change anything for the next chaotic raid like it was with criterion which had also complaints about difficulty.

There will be no easier savage and frankly there shouldn't be because its savage after all.
There should however be other battle content that is what you ask for and that was supposed to be chaotic before they butchered it.

The problem is not backing up or opinions being given here... it's that the devs wont listen anyway to them or implement changes so slowly you will only see them an expansion later at the earliest.
We are all playing Don Quijote here.

[FuturePastNow]

The playerbase yearns for Eureka III

[MrJPtheAssassin]

The playerbase yearns for Eureka III

Honestly, I very much am. I loved Eureka in SB, it was some of the best time I have had in this game. I enjoy getting on a Fate train and just relaxing, killing fates. I LOVED BA and it wasn't that hard either and easily can be done with one person doing callouts in voice. The only hard part in BA is that it punished you pretty harshly for dying but usually, that wouldn't lead to raid-wide wipes as we see in this new 24-man fight. Borza was fun as well. Tho I never did the savage version of its dun, it still looked fun and long the same line if d.level as BA. Overall I very much yearning for a new Eureka/Borza area to play right now.

[Gurgeh]

...
We are all playing Don Quijote here.

Does that use a sub model or F2P? (I've got no time for Gatcha and fomo)
;-)

[Kaurhz]

Then please, 'especially' if your ultimate raiders, just back casuals up even if they are asking for easier savage, or stay out of the discussion. Please. That means changing human nature which isn't going to happen. But, yeah we are not going to stay quiet if ultimate raiders can't either.
Did me personally you could just ask them to stagger savage MUCH further away from normal content so we can get prepared. (No I dint care about crafters I'm afraid, given them the best glams in the game to craft or something. Add a husbandry crafter, and snow them to craft mounts.)
I want to raid. I dint want to craft. I played the game every day for four years. Bought 2 houses. I dint RP it buy mounts and stuff and I still could afford crafted gear. I played a game I enjoyed every day for four years. Dont tell me I'm playing it wrong, and needed to suffer it for four years, if I dint have enough Gil to raid.

People aren't going to advocate for this. Nobody should be advocating for that, not even you. We should be persistently advocating for a step up in intermediate content to help people transition. We should be asking for improvements to Novice Network to further teach personal responsibility in a group setting. We should be advocating for content to be developed and released in tandem with difficult content. I can confidently say that after 7.4 the poles will shift entirely. Raiders will then be eating breadcrumbs once again until 8.05 when the next savage encounter is released. It is in no way shape or form a good way to structure and organize content.

Even then, even if raiders end up backing you it changes nothing, because this isn't a case of who they are listening to. It's a case of they are either listening to nobody, or a select few and doing what they want anyway, or they are listening but are having fatal misconceptions about the feedback, leading to fairly bad introductions.

Some of the rest of this is a bit muddled but as I understand it..

There is no right or wrong way to play the game or make Gil for that matter. Look at the past in the game to see what'll happen in future. SE are very predictable like this.. If you hate crafting and hate Exploratory even, then you can still make Gil through combat, go farm materia, don't unload it on the market instantly, understand that with each patch of crafted gear for battle you need materia, sell the materia, heck you can buy it cheap and then merchant it.

Understand what people need and when they need it.. Even crafters, prior to patch, go fill yourself with a nice stack of Heliometry tomestones, 7.2 drops, and you suddenly have a highly valued currency. Use it to sell those items, or use those tomes as bartering, people do "Your tomes, my mats -> Your gear" all the time on party finder, and it's very lucrative for crafters to do that.. They make some Gil, they spend absolutely nothing on Tomes, and you get a significant discount.

Heck, you can do this on patch day and include hunts in the process.. Sell your items, then go do hunt trains for a few cycles, and suddenly before you know it by the late afternoon / early evening you will have easily capped your tomes a couple of times and will easily have been 2-8M Gil for only an evening amount of work, and no it isn't hyperbole like the "Go make millions an hour" comment by doing Bunnies in Pagos/Pyros/Hydatos (They are lucrative, but not that lucrative), or you then have more to barter with people.

It isn't that you're playing the game wrong, but you're playing it in a very restrictive manner.

I'm of the opinion it can be both player vs company and player vs player. Unless we're all suddenly under the delusional that hardcore players never use the term "filthy casual" unironically and casual players never think hardcore players are trying to make the entire game "harder" and more "worth their time." (The validity of the facts in either pov in this instance is irrelevant), both forms of "us vs them" are very real

The root cause of the issue is player versus company. The attacking itself is of player versus player, that much is true, but it isn't the actual issue, and nor is it the cause, honestly. It's just a symptom of the issue of company not listening to players, or doing an exceptionally poor job at it for that matter. Treating the actual issues as player versus player is just not addressing anything, and just adding needless rhetoric. Like, you can call it a player versus player issue to the extent we're just attacking each other, but ultimately all of the issues are stemming from SE and decisions they themselves have made

Granted we shouldn't be attacking anyway, but as I've been misunderstood a few times today, of probably my own making, I should clarify that by player versus player I am referring to where the issue as as of a direct result of the player, e.g., some people are blaming casuals for some content being easier or for modern job decisions, just as some casuals may blame hardcore folk for the incessant focus, or when more difficult changes are made, when in reality it is just the devs not doing a very good job of understanding a lot of the feedback.

[Lilapop]

snip

Pretending every instance of "player versus player" conflict is a response of player vs company is delusional. A vast majority? sure. The overall community however is far from perfect.

[Gurgeh]

ok at the past in the game to see what'll happen in future. SE are very predictable like this.. If you hate crafting and hate Exploratory even, then you can still make Gil through combat, go farm materia, don't unload it on the market instantly, understand that with each patch of crafted gear for battle you need materia, sell the materia, heck you can buy it cheap and then merchant it.

What? I don't understand this? You can't even build extract enough Materia for your own needs? Let alone have enough to sell for a set of crafted in time for raid.
Besides, I've no idea how much materia is needed to penta meld. Its random. Its impossible to work out including margins for 'sample' size with all the percentages. So you just have to save it until after your done with it. So thats not an option for gil to prep for raid, until after I'm raid ready myself. I don't understand gearing, but I know there is more than one set per expansion so thats 2 x 10 x how many sets? 5 x how many x how many sets? (nah just got to save it.) Selling materia for gil (- commision) and then buying it back including commission, is just going to be a loss. If I'm bad at economics and trading, I don't much care, and kowing Im bad isn't goign to suddenly make me better.

Understand what people need and when they need it..

I've got no talent for that. No idea how to find out. No interest in finding out. Politics and economics and sociology, and reasearcing redit 'into a game' on the internet doesn't interest me. Spreadsheets bore me. And I don't enjoy squeezing profit. If I see someone flogging NPC gear for sprouts above the NPC price, I just go buy something to undercut it.
I have a system for selling stuff on the MB *quickly*. I check my retainers when I remember and am waiting to queue. 2/3 times a week. (sometimes I do inventory management, sometimes retainers, sometimes gold saucer for mini cactpot and and to sell my cards. Never all of them everyday. Thank god our inventories arent bigger. Just a shame they are full of so many psuedo currencies. I just have to throw most of the untradeable stuff away, no idea whats its for. Mostly when I used to look it up it buys old gear. If I don't know what it is and when I got it or where to use it or on what, it gets discarded. The item hint descriptions seem to have no purpose.

Even crafters, prior to patch, go fill yourself with a nice stack of Heliometry tomestones, 7.2 drops, and you suddenly have a highly valued currency. Use it to sell those items,

What?!! I only get 450 a week. It takes me two weeks just to buy one chest piece?
I was capping out every week I could once I finished MSQ, unsubbed for about six weeks only, then capped every week, and I only just finished getting my main job to 720 about two weeks ago??!!
How am i supposed to have helios to spare?
Besides I don't think this currency was even out until savage already hit.

or use those tomes as bartering, people do "Your tomes, my mats -> Your gear"

???? You cant trade tome gear? What mats?

all the time on party finder, and it's very lucrative for crafters to do that.. They make some Gil, they spend absolutely nothing on Tomes, and you get a significant discount.

Honestly this made no sense to me. Its like its in a foreign language. It clearly requires other knowledge and concepts I've not come accross. How do I make money off crafters with tome gear I cant trade when I dont have enough tomes myself?

Heck, you can do this on patch day and include hunts in the process.. Sell your items, then go do hunt trains for a few cycles, and suddenly before you know it by the late afternoon / early evening you will have easily capped your tomes a couple of times and will easily have been 2-8M Gil

No I did a hunt train once and while it was fun being on voice with someone, the hunt itself was so boring. I'll do them if they can invent someway to get the marks to scale in diffculty. Besides, when ever a bunch of people suddenly show up at an aetherite and you find out a hunt is happening, I'm already doing something. And they never stop to talk or wait around. zip in and zip out.
Perhaps also because I still don't understand. How does a hunt train earn you gil? Whats it got to do with patch day? It just for gems to buy glams and thing? Some materials yes, but... I 've got no idea what to buy. I tried selling mats from Fats in DT whith spare gems. I gotta say, I didn't earn me much.


Nope, I'm not spending a 'whole' evening chasing after after groups spamming a to one hit kill stuff. I just don't get how people find that 'fun'? Besides it seemed kind of drama ridden, there was arguing about when people should go and when people should wait.

or only an evening amount of work,

X-D No. I'm not doing 'anything' that feels like work. Certainly not a whole afternoon. I'll do 15 minutes tedium once a week, if I can mix it up with other types of tedium on other days. Like how I do inventory one day, retainers another, cactpot and cards another.

and no it isn't hyperbole like the "Go make millions an hour" comment by doing Bunnies in Pagos/Pyros/Hydatos (They are lucrative, but not that lucrative), or you then have more to barter with people.

I remember those. They weren't fun to do even when did Eureka before DT. There is no challlenge. Its all press A one hit killing. More or less. How can anyone do that for fun. I just don't get it.
Bartering? You cant barter on the MB. You put someting up. 15 minutes later someone has undercut you. And if its really valuable it probably hasn't sold two days later. YOu keep lowering the price, and eventually yes it does sell, but not quickly so you lose a huge amount of value if your not checking prices constantly as far as I can tell. Now I just set price to all zeros with at most three significant figures. If its 100,000 I just knock 10,000 off at a a time or it never sells before someone else hits the market.

It isn't that you're playing the game wrong, but you're playing it in a very restrictive manner.

I just don't enjoy what some other people enjoy. I have pretty low boredom threshold. And am acutely aware of if something is neither 'interesting' nor 'fun'. (I will never finish ARR relics)

I'm not restricing myself. I just only enjoy battle content and helping people. That's what I enjoy. I do this for fun. If its not fun I stop logging in. (and at present I'm unsubbed for the second time in 3 months after four years straight every day.) So you wont have to hear from me in 7/14 days.

I want to do battle content. Or aim for a 'very clear guaranteed' goal, that is a progression to something. Bartering (arguing, cajoling, persuading, negotiating, profiteering) speculating, "gambling", doesn't interest me, its too vague and uncertain, and I think I'd be bad at it anyway.
I get the market board, but truth is I mostly sell stuff and never buy. I don't see what is has that I need. About the only time I use it is for a glam competition, or to buy a present for someone. Thats the only time I buy anything. I've no idea how any of my stuff sells to be honest. What are people doing with it all? Its junk. Crafting something I guess. But who are they selling it to unless its glamour? I guess thats what it all is.

I enjoyed battling in this game for four years. I never used to have to do this tedious stuff back then. The casual game used to be way more challenging than it is now (old Aurum, learning Darkness alliance, some of the trials and dungeons back when I had no experience, many of the alliances after.) The game has got easier, I've got better, and now I have to do all this... mindless mash 'a' stuff and crafting in order to keep battling. (When I suspect I'm porbbaly just going to be no good at savage anyway.) I wanted to tray savage out when it was the 'current' thing. And I missed the boat. I didn't even know the name of the boat it seems.

[LibitIncarne]

(SNIP)
1: What?
2: I've
3: What?!!
4: ????
5: Honestly
7: X-D
8: I
9: I

1: Do hunt trains
2: Skill Issue
3: By being subbed and doing content for long enough, or by supplementing that gear you have with drops from Alliance Raids.
4: The five materials used in crafted gear and the material used in creating current endgame potions all cost 20 Allagan Tomestones of Aesthetics.
5: If you don't have enough tomes, that's a skill issue. Grind more.
6: You're just showing that you want people to bend to your whims here instead of looking at what's actually going on or joining the community to go look at when trains are being scheduled.
7: "I want lots of money without putting in any effort!"
8: "This is too easy, it's boring so I don't want to do it."
Pick one of the two stances to have.
9: You should probably play a more appealing game if this is your stance.