Do you think that Picto needs a nerf?

[Realfoxy]

Nothing makes me look bad, I’m just tired of listening to you act like you aren’t here complaining that black mage isn’t the best option universally.

That’s what you want, stop hiding it behind the veil of wanting any sort of balance. If you genuinely think it make sense for a single job to be the best competitive option 100% of the time with no variance. Then I believe you’re the epitome of why game developers should NEVER listen to players. You’d have people quitting this game in numbers because of how stale it would be as the same 4 pure DPS continue to be the best options you could ever bring to an encounter with one of them being swapped out for red mage during prog. That’s lame, nobody wants that, shops should succeed and falter in different places or incentizes value and diversity

So for the last time, please just say exactly what you want.
“I want black mage to be the best”

Because that’s all you’re arguing for. You don’t care about actual balance

Reading this post is so strange to me, because even when BLM was actually overpowered (Anabeisos tier, thanks to the TOP buffs), I never saw any community sentiment complaining about how BLM meta dominance was forcing people onto a job they resented - unlike the situation we have with PCT.

BLM's lack of res and perceived difficulty (I say perceived, I don't think the job in EW or in DT is too much more difficult if you're a decent level Savage raider) has always kept it from being heavily played, even when it's been strong. So I find the idea that if BLM was the best in damage, people would be screaming, crying, and quitting the game to be rather far-fetched.

Anyway, to get back to the actual problem: I don't have a problem with PCT being ahead in downtime, if BLM is ahead in uptime. But you're absolutely incorrect that BLM is ahead in Savage uptime right now. And if BLM isn't ahead in uptime, it's going to be far behind in downtime, and we're back to discussing the FRU problem.

You've also completely ignored the value of party utility like mitigation. Say you're planning your team composition for on-patch progression, and you have a choice between two selfish casters. Do you want a BLM that does slightly more damage, at the cost of requiring more focus from the player? Or would you prefer a PCT that has marginally lower damage, but has greater mitigation and movement tools, while being easier to play? Does this seem like good balance to you?

Or maybe it could be the case that PCT does better damage, but only in a scenario with an aligned, raid buff heavy composition, whereas BLM does better in party comps without buffs. That could be interesting balance.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not going to be screaming, crying, and quitting the game if PCT is ahead by like, 2% in Savage - it'd be an improvement on what we have right now, that's for sure. I just don't think in my ideal world you have zero utility jobs doing less damage in 100% ideal conditions that jobs with utility (actual utility, not raid buffs).

[Supersnow845]

I will note that while mitigation as utility is never pointless or shouldn’t be considered DPS mitigation in a spike damage heavy fight where SCH exists in a world where SGE had to be able to clear is already so unbalanced that one or two extra DPS mitigations is rounding error for most of the fight

Still i think this goes back to the idea that fairer balance across a wider range of scenarios can only really exist if either

a) utility isn’t factored into damage potential (except potentially raise)
b) every job has some sort of meaningful utility so they are unbound by the problems the existence of selfish jobs bring

Because it goes back to the problem of the design of ultimate is so hostile to BLM that there is physically no way you can balance it against PCT in both scenarios without at least a 6% difference on one side. Either PCT is 8% ahead of BLM in ultimate and BLM just pulls ahead by a fraction in rDPS in savage or PCT just pulls ahead in ultimate in which it ends up 7-8% behind BLM in savage just barely holding onto a melee slot. Even if you take the worst possible solution and force PCT to paint in uptime PCT is still going to pull way ahead of BLM because downtime heavy fights favour bursters (especially on the cDPS front), and PCT is the best burster in the game

If the “need” for BLM to be first to ensure its usefulness didn’t exist as a concept because it either had utility or utility didn’t factor into damage then BLM 4-5% ahead in savage PCT 4-5% ahead in ultimate wouldn’t really be problematic on the either side

[Realfoxy]

...
Still i think this goes back to the idea that fairer balance across a wider range of scenarios can only really exist if either

a) utility isn’t factored into damage potential (except potentially raise)
b) every job has some sort of meaningful utility so they are unbound by the problems the existence of selfish jobs bring

Because it goes back to the problem of the design of ultimate is so hostile to BLM that there is physically no way you can balance it against PCT in both scenarios without at least a 6% difference on one side. Either PCT is 8% ahead of BLM in ultimate and BLM just pulls ahead by a fraction in rDPS in savage or PCT just pulls ahead in ultimate in which it ends up 7-8% behind BLM in savage just barely holding onto a melee slot. Even if you take the worst possible solution and force PCT to paint in uptime PCT is still going to pull way ahead of BLM because downtime heavy fights favour bursters (especially on the cDPS front), and PCT is the best burster in the game

If the “need” for BLM to be first to ensure its usefulness didn’t exist as a concept because it either had utility or utility didn’t factor into damage then BLM 4-5% ahead in savage PCT 4-5% ahead in ultimate wouldn’t really be problematic on the either side

OK, I can see where you're coming from here. I think you can make PCT less bursty without it losing its identity (random idea off the top of my head: painting a motif in uptime does a 'splash of paint' effect that does damage, letting you pull back on motif potency without making them unviable to paint in uptime).

I also think that while a bursty job is always going to be favoured in ultimates, with proper fight design it's not actually as big of a deal as it appears, since the goal is generally not just pumping numbers but ensuring a clear. For example, there's been cases where gauge building jobs have been able to perform well in final phases while not necessarily coming in at the top of the DPS charts. There's also cases like TOP P4, where the fact that BLM didn't align with the 2min meta was advantageous in meeting a DPS check during prog. You can also have ultimate phases that are specifically designed to disfavour bursters (e.g. phase that ends just before a 2min burst would be possible). So there's some flexibility in the system if the fight designers are willing to be creative.

The other way you buff BLM to do better in downtime is bring back the old MP system and EW style nonstandard - part of the current job's problem is that the DT changes made its rotation much more rigid and unable to adapt to shorter uptime phases. I've just never raised it here because this wasn't the thread for it.

[Valence]

From another MCH main:

Fair enough, perhaps I'm too used to work within statics, I've dropped PF long ago after my first tier in Sigmascape... I can see selfish jobs faring a little better there.

[Carighan]

It kind of looks like we may be talking about slightly different metrics when discussing the selfish DPS. More than likely, nDPS was probably the metric intended for them to top. rDPS I can see needing to be more closer with classes relying on defensive utilities more heavily having a slightly lower value.

Yeah I should have been more specific above, that's why I found the idea of selfish DPS "not being top" so bewildering: I mean on a target dummy. Because naturally, in a group scenario, buffs/debuffs bring up the rDPS of the buffers and debuffers. A separate case or utility jobs like RDM or SMN, who pay some form of "tax" to make up for the fact that they bring non-damage effects that are group-relevant. As in, the whole job isn't "100% damage", basically.

[Tigore]

@ Supersnow

I was starting to get concerned that there was simply a misunderstanding with what terminology was used to describe something. Even with Warcraft being allowed damage meter addons, the terms used here were different for me to see. Last I recall, we usually just compare the unbuffed target dummy DPS (nDPS for here) with the raid buffed DPS (which should be cDPS for here). I will mention some things from the competing game just in case it could have helpful things to consider here.

The classes there used to be balanced around the presence of a raid buff since they all stacked with each other once upon a time. Shamans with Bloodlust / Heroism were especially taxed being the only ones providing a cooldown buff for around 40s with a 30% universal Haste increase. Some Shaman players were not as happy their performance was notably worse just due to that OP buff. As a result, Blizzard started to give the 30% raid buff to other "pure DPS" classes. Mage got it as Time Warp and Hunters got it through certain pets in the early developments (core hounds). Hunter later on got it by just specializing the pet into the Ferocity tree. This doesn't mean we can stack these buffs though. Blizz also added in an overwriting system as well as updated the 10 minute Sated / Exhaustion debuffs to also cancel out Time Warp and the Hunter pet version in addition to the Bloodlust / Heroism. Using the Mage and Hunter versions just use a different named debuff that did the same thing for class lore flavor. Something like the Warrior Battle Shouts and Paladin Blessing of Might used to stack for quite a lot of Attack Power, but now overwrite each other. The devs started to balance the damage with much less weight on the raid buffs now that multiple classes could offer it and cannot stack it either.

The "pure DPS classes" were basically the ones that only DPS and do not have any tank or healer specs they could switch to. They used to have slightly higher damage to encourage their use, but then it more so became a decision to ensure they have nice QoL utilities instead. Mages could conjure food and water that could be traded so members can restore health faster out of combat and also had portals they could cast anytime to teleport raid members to cities. Warlocks had healthstones or "cookies" that could be used instead of a potion so the raid doesn't have to use that consumable as well as their "demonic TV summon stone" used to summon "lazy" raid members to any designated spot. Both Rogues and Hunters could use Vanish and Feign Death to empty their enmity table and escape combat on a wipe to reduce their durability repair bills. Rogues could also pickpocket NPCs and unlock lockboxes and some doors, but these quirks were more weak when I was around for Shadowlands. The Rogue Stealth and Hunter Camouflage are pretty good with avoiding combat they don't want to engage with. Rogue and Hunter even has Misdirection and Tricks of the Trade that can be used to help establish initial enmity for the tanks, although they have also been abused for other reasons too (used to be an old NIN quirk). The crowd control (CC) from Mages, Rogues and Hunters used to be another important consideration, but the trash packs were eventually nerfed in danger levels to simply AoE them down.

[Lanvaldear]

An idea that would fix the problem and not a single thing would have to change with PCT (or any class).
Would also solve the issue with the classes that get burned by downtime.

While it would require a restructure of the fight in terms of dps checks:
Halt CD timers and disable casting if the boss isn't targetable with a few exceptions, IE non lily healing, swift cast, raise, ect.

edit* IDK if this has been suggested yet.

[Supersnow845]

An idea that would fix the problem and not a single thing would have to change with PCT (or any class).
Would also solve the issue with the classes that get burned by downtime.

While it would require a restructure of the fight in terms of dps checks:
Halt CD timers and disable casting if the boss isn't targetable with a few exceptions, IE non lily healing, swift cast, raise, ect.

edit* IDK if this has been suggested yet.

The solution to every class besides PCT hating downtime is not making downtime even deader than it already is by making downtime functionally excluded from CD’s

Like that’s turning downtime into dead time

It would also (and this is an achievement) make WHM even worse

[Azurarok]

Let DoTs continue to tick while the boss is untargettable again

It'd only make a tiny dent in the disparity for only a few jobs but it's one of the few things they can do that won't shift a job's output further into its burst.

[Lanvaldear]

The solution to every class besides PCT hating downtime is not making downtime even deader than it already is by making downtime functionally excluded from CD’s

Like that’s turning downtime into dead time

It would also (and this is an achievement) make WHM even worse

This would intrinsically not change how downtime effects the player in the moment in anyway, it would just level the playing field between the individual classes. No one would benefit, no one would suffer.