Can anyone clearly explain "job homogenization" in this game?

[Supersnow845]

It's always remarkable how 'ignoring the rules as they apply to everyone else' ends up being an 'identity'.

I'll argue for parity and fairness, just as I've promised. Snow is all set to push for PCT's ongoing dominance, just as they've promised. And you'll continue to be a long-suffering Physical Ranged player in the name of defending the status quo, just as you've promised. So we're all raiders of our word, really, except for Snow, who is, in fact, roleplaying a raider.

Okay I give up. I physically don’t know what else to tell you. I’ve tried to explain how I’m fine with PCT nerfs, I’ve tried to explain why certain PCT nerfs are not what I want, I’ve tried to explain to you that I do raid and I’ve tried to explain to you my reasoning for everything and it just goes in one ear and out the other ear while you skip over my posts to reply to someone going “funny they never do what (insert what I just did replying to that person)”. Like it’s hilarious you are trying to claim I’m “promising to maintain PCT’s dominance” when the post of mine you skipped over trying to reach out to you involves me asking your thoughts on a TEN PERCENT NERF. Like is it just your inability to act like anything like your own solution is viable (even though the person you replied to insult me doesn’t want that solution either)

Use me as your example of the big mean PCT main who wants to maintain the job as it is (because you can’t actually find anyone who holds that stance because in reality nobody actually holds that stance you just have to warp everyone’s stances to pretend like PCT mains don’t want changes. Like how you are trying to bend this thread into a “caster mains oppress physical range mains but I’m the nice melee who supports you dragging casters down to phys range level”) I don’t know what to do anymore. Continue your vendetta against PCT, I’m out

snip.

That’s what I’m saying look at dungeon AOE balance it’s all over the place. They simply do not care about dungeon balance in any way shape or form. If PCT is overperforming in the trash in criterion savage (I wouldn’t be surprised if it was) motifs can easily be given harder falloff if this is an actual balance concern but like I said that kinda goes beyond my original point as I was just looking at the axis of savage vs ultimate. PCT performs well in multi target, like everything but it’s not really the core of its problem. AOE can be fixed with motif falloff (that’s why I don’t really give much acknowledgment to it). Outside of that niche content has weird balance anyway, WAR is almost the best POTD class and WHM dominates Bozja, it’s hard to balance that area but yeah if PCT excels at almost all multi target areas then sure nerf its motif falloff you won’t hear a complaint from me

As for “don’t nerf PCT just because of ultimates” that was in reference to to lyths “targeted muse changes” but if that was misinterpreted that was my mistake and I’ll own that

[Valence]

I say PCT’s niche is ultimate because actionable downtime that PCT massively benefits from really only exists in ultimate for content where balance has meaning. Savage and extreme these days barely have downtime and if they do it’s really only 1-2 motifs across the fight at most, it’s not nothing per say but it’s close to basically soulsow level in that range. Below that downtime and AOE are basically always unbalanced, like they just simply don’t balance AOE these days, it just kinda exists. Dungeon balance shouldn’t be ignored (I mean I still say bloodwhetting should be nerfed in dungeons despite dungeon balance not mattering per say) but it has less meaning here and that could be fixed by something as simple as giving motifs a higher falloff as while hammer is rather weak PPS wise in single target it’s a beast in AOE. But that’s kinda beyond the scope of my point, I honestly don’t even know how the DPS rank against each other in dungeon style AOE

Sidenote on people that like saying that dungeon balance doesn't matter, it actually does a great deal as well. It's extremely frustrating being paired with another DPS that flatlines a whole pack before you can even finish your own burst. It used to be the case with SMN last expansion (frontloaded in nukes), it's the case with PCT today... I know some people like being done with dungeons as fast as possible to escape that dullness, but maybe they wouldnt be as dull with less bullshit like this to be honest, and it's not different from WAR being a one man army in there.

I'll argue for parity and fairness, just as I've promised. Snow is all set to push for PCT's ongoing dominance, just as they've promised. And you'll continue to be a long-suffering Physical Ranged player in the name of defending the status quo, just as you've promised. So we're all raiders of our word, really, except for Snow, who is, in fact, roleplaying a raider.

Yeah I guess you could say I'm defending the statu quo when I've literally been calling for the whole battle system to be scrapped and restarted over, and tried to look at the bigger picture and why every attempt at finding solutions always inevitably fails otherwise. How very conservative of me.

[Connor]

Sidenote on people that like saying that dungeon balance doesn't matter, it actually does a great deal as well. It's extremely frustrating being paired with another DPS that flatlines a whole pack before you can even finish your own burst. It used to be the case with SMN last expansion (frontloaded in nukes), it's the case with PCT today... I know some people like being done with dungeons as fast as possible to escape that dullness, but maybe they wouldnt be as dull with less bullshit like this to be honest, and it's not different from WAR being a one man army in there.

Yeah as you say, it’s interesting that the general community vibe is ‘screw dungeon balance nobody cares’, then they wonder why expert roulettes / general content is so relentlessly mind numbing lol. Like we’re literally just giving devs license to be as lazy as possible with this approach.

Yeah I guess you could say I'm defending the statu quo when I've literally been calling for the whole battle system to be scrapped and restarted over, and tried to look at the bigger picture and why every attempt at finding solutions always inevitably fails otherwise. How very conservative of me.

I find it hilarious that people trying to remind others that phys ranged is a role that exists and has major problems…get called ‘phys ranged’ as a slur and basically told to piss off because the precious Pictomancers are talking. Also the sheer fact we’re still using ‘phys ranged’ as an insult lol…

You cannot silence this Bard! I can use Esuna it takes 45 seconds lol

[Supersnow845]

Going back to the core premise of the question the thread was asking I guess there is an interesting distinction between “the fix is actually bringing true utility back into the game” and “the fix is a change in phys range design to “justify” its damage against the other roles”

I personally lean towards the former simply because true utility would upend the entire system which the game needs. We already see how hard SCH warps the game around it and SCH has the most minor utility in the grand scheme of things. This isn’t to say I want this because I want phys ranged to do less damage but more so because I miss true support in this game (which is what BRD originally was) this also leans into mechanics specifically being designed around differences in different jobs uptime considerations. I want mechanics to exist that force me away from the boss and keep me constantly on the move. Really play into the mechanic making it feel like only you can solve it (and if you have to make the caster and healers do other things to ensure this I’m all for it)

I admit I have spent too much time here discussing PCT and I’m sorry for that. But I really do want to see changes in the physical ranged role but I also understand I’m not a main so if this change design is unpopular can people explain to me why you personally don’t like that change

Edit turns out I thought this was the phys ranged thread

[Connor]

I personally lean towards the former simply because true utility would upend the entire system which the game needs.

Edit turns out I thought this was the phys ranged thread

Honestly I feel exactly the same about how they should move forward and I think phys ranged could benefit massively from it, possibly healers as well if it means their gameplay is no longer limited to ‘deal direct damage’ or ‘make HP bar go up’.

And, while it may be the wrong thread I still think it’s relevant to the topic lol. I feel like standardising phys ranged into essentially being ‘melees but with range’ (Viper is that you? lol) or ‘casters with no casting’ is ultimately going to result in even more job homogenisation within the role. Especially in regards to things like support and utility, where the devs always balance it based on personal dps output. So if they rebalanced phys ranged along those lines, they’d inevitably lower/remove their support capabilities, which I’d argue is the most important aspect of the role’s identity (sorry MCH lol).

Designing the game to actually accomodate ‘true utility’ / ‘supportive’ gameplay and combat design opens up the floor for them to actually design phys ranged as having a unique supportive role, rather than simply homogenising their gameplay with other roles to justify higher personal dps outputs. And naturally, being a ‘supportive’ role doesn’t necessarily mean Machinist can’t still be a primarily offense-oriented class, so they don’t need to be left out or turned into something people might not want.

[Valence]

Going back to the core premise of the question the thread was asking I guess there is an interesting distinction between “the fix is actually bringing true utility back into the game” and “the fix is a change in phys range design to “justify” its damage against the other roles”

I personally lean towards the former simply because true utility would upend the entire system which the game needs. We already see how hard SCH warps the game around it and SCH has the most minor utility in the grand scheme of things. This isn’t to say I want this because I want phys ranged to do less damage but more so because I miss true support in this game (which is what BRD originally was) this also leans into mechanics specifically being designed around differences in different jobs uptime considerations. I want mechanics to exist that force me away from the boss and keep me constantly on the move. Really play into the mechanic making it feel like only you can solve it (and if you have to make the caster and healers do other things to ensure this I’m all for it)

I admit I have spent too much time here discussing PCT and I’m sorry for that. But I really do want to see changes in the physical ranged role but I also understand I’m not a main so if this change design is unpopular can people explain to me why you personally don’t like that change

Edit turns out I thought this was the phys ranged thread

Both aren't mutually exclusive, the second option I just don't agree with the solutions offered by people that just consists into deleting the role and making it casters (and they conveniently look the other way when DNC comes into question... because the idea of making it cast is just ludicrous, so what do we do with DNC once everybody is an universal ranged role?). It's totally possible to imagine rotations complex and intricate enough to prove enough to justify a damage upgrade, and possibly rotations that aren't a scripted piece of memorized sheet to regurgitate ad vitam either but to adjust on the spot instead with actual maintenance and choices like it used to be, or more.

As much as I want them to reinfuse complexity into the battle system with true, required utility in the game, I know this is unlikely to happen because they just don't have that vision for their game and have decided to get rid of everything that predated Stormblood when this expansion dropped. But if uptime is a source of difficulty, either from melee uptime, positionals, or caster cast times, then surely there is room for complex rotations to be a source of difficulty as well. HW MCH used to be the most complex dps job in the game for example, and that's not even talking about the cast times, there is a reason it stayed a meme in the community until late SB even though its SB version was easier to manage (but more punishing I guess).

And I'm saying that as someone that would actually get crippled by something like this, because I already crumble under some modern encounter mechanics (based on memory or fast visual puzzles), so even if I absolutely strive into a more demanding battle system and complex job toolkits, it would certainly not help me to have even more of my attention turned away from encounter mechanics that my mind just wants to gloss over because they're DDR garbage.

[Azurarok]

What kinds of utility could they do, though? I know MP/TP recovery used to exist, while current fight designs basically erased debuffs like bind/heavy. Not that they couldn't go back to that, but I'm not sure if they're willing to.

Give buffs that reduces cast times? Extend the range of a melee? Slap on debuffs that make positionals always hit?

[mallleable]

Definitely gonna be a take, but I think that trying to avoid homogenization at all cost is a similar creative trap as only wanting to make 'original' things. Like you will just hit dead end after dead end trying to avoid any kind of influence for the sake of trying to be 'original' -- trying to avoid homogenization. Like yeah, they should take care to minimize derivative designs, but jobs should be taking influence -- should be stealing from each other if it makes them stronger, and better to play.

[Connor]

What kinds of utility could they do, though? I know MP/TP recovery used to exist, while current fight designs basically erased debuffs like bind/heavy. Not that they couldn't go back to that, but I'm not sure if they're willing to.

Give buffs that reduces cast times? Extend the range of a melee? Slap on debuffs that make positionals always hit?

Why not all of the above? I mean, they’ve been extremely uncreative with ‘support’/‘utility’ recently, but that doesn’t mean it has to stay that way. On top of debuffs like bind/heavy there’s also actual stat debuffs, reduces damage dealt by enemy, critical resistances, etc. More things to interrupt and Esuna could/would help too.

Plus there’s always novel ways they could introduce further utility to phys ranged. Like if Dancer got a channeled ability where it dances and every ally restores HP on hit / a portion of damage dealt by enemy/ etc. Like XI’s Drain Samba. Or if they turned Warden’s Paean into a party wide ‘aura’ that drains MP while singing to protect against all ailments. Machinist auto-turrets could have hp shield effects like PvP and debuff enemies offense/defense. Resurrection capabilities are a utility too but that’s a bit more controversial.

I’d say there’s plenty of ways for them to reinforce utility on support. And frankly I also think maybe they’ve went a bit too far in the ‘every dps has utility’ direction lol. Like, did Monk really need an AoE heal? Or Reaper with that regen thing it does lol. I wouldn’t be surprised if Viper gets a raid buff next expansion

[Azurarok]

Why not all of the above? I mean, they’ve been extremely uncreative with ‘support’/‘utility’ recently, but that doesn’t mean it has to stay that way. On top of debuffs like bind/heavy there’s also actual stat debuffs, reduces damage dealt by enemy, critical resistances, etc. More things to interrupt and Esuna could/would help too.

Plus there’s always novel ways they could introduce further utility to phys ranged. Like if Dancer got a channeled ability where it dances and every ally restores HP on hit / a portion of damage dealt by enemy/ etc. Like XI’s Drain Samba. Or if they turned Warden’s Paean into a party wide ‘aura’ that drains MP while singing to protect against all ailments. Machinist auto-turrets could have hp shield effects like PvP and debuff enemies offense/defense. Resurrection capabilities are a utility too but that’s a bit more controversial.

I’d say there’s plenty of ways for them to reinforce utility on support. And frankly I also think maybe they’ve went a bit too far in the ‘every dps has utility’ direction lol. Like, did Monk really need an AoE heal? Or Reaper with that regen thing it does lol. I wouldn’t be surprised if Viper gets a raid buff next expansion

I mean yes, but I was strictly speaking of utility that's not directly mitigation or healing or essentially a raid buff