Thanks for all the Fish

[Daralii]

Even if magically all my other issues with DT MSQ (which have been discussed to exhaustion) disappeared that development still wouldn't sit right with me.
I have no issue with a low stakes expansion to rediscover the joy of adventuring for the sake of adventuring. I have no problem with us discovering the next big threat of this new post-Ascian arc, we were bound to.
I absolutely take issue with them realizing they were three quarters through their airtime, instantly escalating things from zero to 100 to throw a threat on a level we haven't seen since depressed TwitterX bird our way and immediately wrapping it up in time for the credits.
If our power as the WoL/D has now escalated to the level where our casual, one-off villain of the week comes with powers to threaten the multiverse as a default I really wonder what bigger threat they can still build up to or if we're going to see future stories take place exclusively in other dimensions where they can justify a lazy power reset "because it is another dimension".

Can you even really call it a post-Ascian arc when the only thing of importance in 7.0 is an Amaurotine hourglass? I won't be surprised if the other Sphene is one of the remaining Sundered either.

[Dastan]

Sorry but ARR was nowhere near as much of a slog as dawntrail. Dawntrail is not only a slog it doesn't give you any intrigue, it doesn't set up any interesting conflicts, it is actively a detriment to pre-existing lore, the setting it presents is incredibly uninteresting. "It's setting up stuff" is not a valid excuse. ARR gave us an introduction to a world full of mystery, it gave us interesting characters whose stories we could look forward to, it set up a mountain of interesting conflict.

I can't change your opinion of the story, but I will disagree with you about ARR. It's the main reason why people end up quitting the game and still is. The pacing is way too slow for newer people, especially those new to mmos, on top of the combat and back and forth quests. It is the biggest slog in the game by far. But like I said, if you stick with it, it does pay off towards the end of that story and sets up both Heavensward, and later Stormblood, very nicely.

I did enjoy Dawntrail. There was intrigue for me seeing a new continent, there were scenes where it made me cry, and while the setting isn't near anything like ShB and EW, I still think it's a good story with a lot of potential. It just seems to me, a lot of you got really spoiled by what came before. You came in expecting this grandiose thing only to set yourself up for disappointment. I don't know what to tell you other than if you seem to not like where the game is going story-wise, then there are other stories out there. Dawntrail does have characters that I am invested and interested in to see what happens to them. I'm mostly curious to see what an interconnected multi-dimensional world looks like when that bridge opens up. Our WoL can freely travel between them, sure, but we haven't seen a situation where the entire people from one shard are freely able to go to another with no issue or wall between them, setting up a lot of potential, inter-dimensional relations with other shards. Dawntrail is a complete change of narrative, and maybe that's why some people don't really like it. I can see that.

[Gaddes]

Sorry but ARR was nowhere near as much of a slog as dawntrail. Dawntrail is not only a slog it doesn't give you any intrigue, it doesn't set up any interesting conflicts, it is actively a detriment to pre-existing lore, the setting it presents is incredibly uninteresting. "It's setting up stuff" is not a valid excuse. ARR gave us an introduction to a world full of mystery, it gave us interesting characters whose stories we could look forward to, it set up a mountain of interesting conflict.

I'm not defending Dawntrail, but I think people have some serious rose-colored nostalgia glasses on for ARR storyline, either that or they're desperate to put yet another plotline above Dawntrail's. ARR was bad enough that the devs themselves had to go in and cut quests because it DRAGGED. I was watching some FFXIV newbies streaming ARR recently and boy even with the cuts so much of those questlines don't really matter at all until you hit a few notable plot moments. I mean "pray return to the waking sands" meme exists for a reason. I'd also argue that plenty of the main characters weren't interesting in ARR but improved in later expansions, but if I were to judge them purely off of ARR on its own there were a lot of forgettable ones.
The world itself and the lore? Interesting stuff, for sure. But the PLOT with the mustache-twirling Kingdom Hearts-style Ascians (before they were retconned to have different goals and motivations), the mountain of fetch quests, and the overall pacing issues with the storyline? It's really not that great.

[Vyrerus]

ARR base wasn't a slog at all and had decent pacing.

ARR post game needed a lot of pruning, because there was no set cycle nor formula for FFXIV yet, and so they were just making stuff up and biding time as they worked on Heavensward, which they didn't even expect to be greenlit for an expansion, so you know...

Completely different circumstances. Also the setting and Ascians still had mystery then, so the Ascians could twirl their moustaches all they wanted and still be interesting, because they had intrinsically interesting questions revolving around them (Their having The Echo, Speaking The Original Language, Who is Zodiark?, How come they know true summoning?, How come they don't stay dead?)

And you could also argue the point around. While there were originally like 110 quests between 2.0 base end and 2.55 end originally (or something like that), the reason they were viewed unfavorably wasn't due to being bad or unnecessary storyline wise, but due to being too much, too many quests. Basically being in the way of new players and the road to endgame. Low investment/engagement because many many quests that were just spinning the wheels.

Dawntrail doesn't have that excuse. Dawntrail's excuse was purposely set up to be, "Well, we're having to follow a forced finale of a 10 year arc, so you gotta bear with us as we try to start up a new storyline..." This falls flat immediately to anyone with any amount of perception. Because:

1) They're calling back to Ascians and Amaurot still.

2) Endwalker didn't have to be the conclusion expansion. They could have easily gone with a Garlean buffer expansion. They weren't sure they could follow Shadowbringers' unexpected success levels, so they played to the hype train and the easiest way to make something hype is to make it the finale.

3) ARR's start came off the heels of 1.0 as a rebirth for the game, and was a new storyline using 1.0's lore. It was gripping enough to relaunch the game into a long term success. In spite of being the same sort of, "new beginning" as Dawntrail. We have to face reality here and realize that they didn't really write us a good story with good villains nor good adversity nor mystery. What's the hook? See #1.

[Mijeme]

Can I have your stuff?

[Gaddes]

ARR base wasn't a slog at all and had decent pacing.

ARR post game needed a lot of pruning, because there was no set cycle nor formula for FFXIV yet, and so they were just making stuff up and biding time as they worked on Heavensward, which they didn't even expect to be greenlit for an expansion, so you know...

Completely different circumstances.

Agree to disagree I guess, I always felt the pacing for ARR wasn't the best. Also, remember that what they put out was still a product that should be evaluated on its own merits, just like any other game. I disagree with giving it a pass because of behind-the-scenes circumstances. Plenty of games have problems in development behind the scenes and they don't get that kind of leeway. If something is completed and released, then it deserves to be reviewed based on what was released. And again, I'm not comparing it to Dawntrail, I'm giving my thoughts on ARR on its own.

[VeyaAkemi]

ARR base wasn't a slog at all and had decent pacing.

This is an outright lie.

There are several points in ARR where I felt my skin going through so atrocious the pacing is, and this is after the pruning that came during EW, the entire segment with the Company of Heroes pre-Titan, everything in Coerthas where you just run around doing the literal most menial tasks that while important to establish your connection to Haurchefant is still horrible to go through, the entire Corrupted Crystal sequence pre-Garuda, and then there is how "Pray Return to the Waking Sands" is a meme because it so obviously exists purely to waste your time, there isn't even a lore explanation there, quite the opposite, the Scions could fully well run their entire operation remotely by using Linkpearls so you don't need to go see Minf face to face to get your orders, with Waking Sands existing as an HQ where they can rest and resupply if they chose to, but no, they felt the need to pad things, so they force you to haul ass to a town in the middle of nowhere every time, and while the Vesper Bay Aetheryte Tickets diminished the issue to non-existence, the fact remains the game existed for 7 years with that particular issue.

ARR is like a litmus test to how much bullshit you can put up for this game, if you make it to The Praetorium, that's it, you made it, you can endure anything this game throws at you, and the worst part is that while not spectacular, I actually think ARR has a decent plot, if a little too bog-standard Final Fantasy, it's just marred with absolute nuclear bad storytelling.

[Kaurhz]

ARR, Decent pacing...?????

Pick one LOL

ARR had some good moments where a lot was going on, but it was still a slog.

[Mondschnee]

Agree to disagree I guess, I always felt the pacing for ARR wasn't the best.

I've replayed the ARR post patches recently, and what I can say is: The pacing was sometimes fine, sometimes very long winded, BUT, and that's the most important thing for me, the story made sense, and our actions always seemed to have purpose.

Meanwhile, playing through Dawntrail had me feeling like the writers themselves had no clue where this is going, the story structure and script quality was overwhelmingly bad, explanations and actions illogical and I felt incredibly out of touch with what was happening in the story. This was a first for me, and this is worrisome.

Personally I'm willing to see if they truly understand our feedback (which I'm really doubtful about judging by Yoshi-P's interviews) for some time longer, but if the story doesn't improve after 7.3, I don't know if I'll be back for 8.0 and beyond.

[Argantaelle]

ARR story can't be judged as the whole piece, imo. It has very different components. 2.0 story wasn't the best and was full of mindless, boring quests designed just to waste your time or give you enough exp to level (the corrupted crystal storyline is one of the examples). I've been playing since 2013, and I remember quite well that I wasn't fond of the story, but I liked the world, characters, and PvE, so I stayed. 2.1 was horrible (does anyone remember repairing Minfilia's earring or gathering tea leaves in Coerthas?). 2.2 got somewhat better, and since about the middle of 2.3, the story improved greatly. It became coherent and engaging; the pacing was good with the pinnacle, which was the Bloody Banquet.

It's a pity SE removed one of my favourite dialogues in the game, though.
(ARR spoilers)
(when WoL is looking for the merchant stirring people up in Ul'dah)