They forgot Ranged Physical is a role in the game

[Supersnow845]

This is why there is more than one job. Even if CS3 is trying to turn everything into the same job.

Yeah and then we have one unique job and the community screams about removing the one thing that makes that job unique

[Valence]

I don't think BRD's APM would take that big of a hit -- if at all with walking casts -- even doing something like just making Burst Shot a walking cast. I think BRD would only just need 1 additional GCD proc as part of its filler, dots down to 30 seconds, and an extra charge of Empyreal Arrow. That way, BRD would have DoT/Ironjaws, Refulgent Arrow, Apex/Blast Arrow, and new GCD to double weave off of. And with an extra charge of EA, you don't have to be as strict with when you have to use your oGCDs. Another thing is they could make the haste from Army's Paeon a passive trait or just add it to every song, and rework AP to behave differently.

Wait, you want us to single weave OGCDs on a 2s recast GCD? With walking casts taking up 1.5s of this? It was already borderline obnoxious for HW BRD and MCH on a basic 2.5s GCD...

[Connor]

I really don’t get what the all the hate for ‘walking casts’ is even about. APM? Can’t you still weave oGCDs on a 1.5s cast during the recast? Or I mean, if they were really desperate to stick in a ‘walking cast’ they could just do a Pictomancer and give it a ridiculous recast time so you can weave as many oGCDs as you want lol (Muses). Are we really going to limit anything that could add to phys ranged if it risks not letting you do two abilities instead of one? Is it really that a big a deal? I mean, it’s not like they can’t redistribute potencies to compensate.

Isn’t that also making the assumption that walking casts would somehow be applied wholesale to the entire toolkit, which I really literally dont think a player has ever suggested in the entire histor of physical rangeds’ llifespan lol (idk maybe it happened for MCH but tbh I doubt it). Except maybe me lol and not even as a ‘serious’ suggestion.

They also reduced Minuet’s cast times to 1.5s in Heavensward’s specifically because people were complaining about having to drop/Feint to properly double weave, so the 2.5s HW cast is kind of a moot point since it barely lasted a few patches. They did the same to Foe Requiem too I think that was Stormblood. Unless we’re allowed to be angry about things that happened 4 expansions ago and were changed within one/two patches specifically because of player feedback, in which case I have a bone to pick with them about that time they turned songs into literal DPS cooldowns that didn’t even have support effects.

And I mean, as I’ve been saying, Bards did go 3 expansions with cast times on its songs, and I don’t remember people saying ‘remove all the songs, make them instant abilities, give us more Greased Lightning, make Bloodletter a 0.1s recast, give us speeeeed ’ lol. Hell the whole reason HW phys casters even happened is because they wanted Machinist to have cast times, not Bard.
Then they were like ‘oh wait balance’ so they copy-pasted onto Bard. I don’t think the presence of casts (walking or otherwise) is going to destroy either job as long as it’s actually implemented properly and not literally just overlaid over existing kits (which again I don’t think anyone is suggesting anyway). I mean, I don’t see Samurai complaining about how that 1 cast they do every so often is totally ruining their job because they can’t double weave in that specific window (probably idk).

I will say that of three Dancer would probably struggle the most with cast times, since it’s never been designed around them in any way during its lifespan (yet? lol). But then again, I don’t think anyone has ever suggested Dancer have cast times - Steps effectively do the same thing anyway since you can’t double weave during them

[Valence]

I feel like everyone is talking about different things.

Also no, it's not going to destroy the job. It could make it competitive with casters if SE decides to also buff their damage as a result essentially turning them into casters.
It would however, be the final nail in the coffin of rphys identity.

And if you think adding a single cast time or two on big hitters is going to change anything, I don't know about that. It's going to change literally nothing. I wouldn't mind though, just for the feeling of power behind the ability.

[Connor]

quote

I mean, I may have just misunderstood, but I thought the latter was the point. Adding one or two ‘walking casts’ or whatever to make the job feel engaging without unbalancing the job? Like it’s not about the overall dps as much as how it plays/feels. I mean, whether it’s walking casts or something else the jobs need something to make them feel both powerful and engaging, outside of whether or not they’re actually numerically powerful which is ofc still an important point. But as I mentioned before I think ‘fun’ and ‘balance’ can co-exist; asking for the former doesn’t preclude the latter.

As for identity across phys ranged I feel like it the potential to do that, but I don’t think it’s as clear cut as being ‘the final nail in the coffin’. It all depends on how it’s implemented. If they somehow managed to implement, say, cast times or whatever else in a way that feels unique to each phys ranged job without pushing too heavily into APM output or applying those casts to the exact same things, does it really constitute ‘absolute loss of identity’? I mean, Black Mage and Summoner are both casters, but their implementation is different enough that people don’t generally say they’re playing the same. Likewise nobody is saying ‘Samurai is a now a caster with no melee identity’ because it has that one cast time. And that’s not to say they should just put them on every phys ranged job because ‘some others jobs have them’ either.

I just think that being ‘physical ranged’ shouldn’t preclude a job from having casts; as long as they’re implemented properly around the existing kit and serve some gameplay purpose, I.e Burst Shot turns into ‘Burstier Shot’ during Paeon or like, if they put a cast time on certain Machinist skills but then reintroduced the ammo system for instant mobility (not literal examples lol). Or like Machinists could get a Muse copy+paste but you build like a sniper rifle or an autoturret (ideally with the massive potencies carried over too lol…)

Again not trying to be ‘combative’ just clarifying my opinion lol plus I’m mostly just ranting. I do agree that just putting casts on phys ranged without careful consideration would cause more problems than solve them. But I also think, even minor ‘flavour’ style changes can go a long way to make jobs feel more enjoyable in general. Whether it actually affects balancing is one thing, but I don’t think we should discount things that exist just to affect ‘whether it’s fun’

[mallleable]

Walking casts improves the bow play on BRD. They add a visceral weight to each shot. That alone, I think should be a big enough reason for BRD to get them as well. The bow is a big part of BRD's identity as well whether you like it or not.

Another big reason why BRD should have walking casts is, assuming MCH gets them, then BRD being the only phys ranged job a new player can start the game as should prepare them for MCH's playstyle. BRD cannot, and does not exist in a vacuum.

[Valence]

That's why I was saying everybody is talking about different things. Are we talking about casts on the filler (with ammo or not)? Or are we talking about Iajutsu/Communio? It seems to me that you both are not talking about the same thing at all. Adding cast times to filler combos is mechanically turning rphys into casters, like it used to be back in HW. HW MCH was a more elaborate version of current RDM when it came to its filler. HW BRD was even heavier on the casting due to the lack of ammo, very similar to current healers with the ever bizarre empyreal arrow with cast times. However adding cast times to some big hitters is different, as people rightfully pointed out after all, it doesn't make Samurai or Reaper actual casters, no more than SMN.

Where I'm not getting mixed signals is that both of you want to see this from a purely tactile point of view, which is fair enough. Personally I'm more interested in the mechanics of the role and what it brings to a party, and does. Cast times (on fillers) only bring it into the ranks of casters, and ironically leaving SMN as the sole non caster among the ranged lot. It can however address the problem of damage balance that people have been arguing over for ages since well... they'd be casters which could compete with melees like BLM and PCT can. However, only adding Iajutsu on big moves would just keep the role as it is and change nothing, but add a tactile side to it.

[Connor]

That's why I was saying everybody is talking about different things. Are we talking about casts on the filler (with ammo or not)? Or are we talking about Iajutsu/Communio? It seems to me that you both are not talking about the same thing at all.

Probably not. I did try to avoid being too biased towards my own opinions so I have probably tried to accommodate too many ideas. So I guess I was trying to advocate for both? lol


I think everyone ultimately has a different view of what a ‘ideal phys ranged’ looks like, but thwt also goes for balancing too though I’d say. Like, some would rather see them reinforcing the personal damage output to see the role made more valuable, where others would rather see them reinforcing the support capabilities the role has to see them become more worthwhile, etc. What job people actually play is likely a factor too, since what might work for one job might not necessarily work for the other.

Basically I don’t really mind what path they end up taking, as long as they do something lol. I mean, if I had my way Bard would be a caster in a trench coat, Machinists would be more of a debuffer (still with high damage output ofc), Dancer could stay as more of a fast paced support with focus on rapid repositioning and dance partner. Which, naturally would require soft-reworks at the very least, so would be a ton of work. But I think everyone would be happier if I kept those opinions to myself lol so I’m just kinda trying to advocate for anything that could help the job lol. Whether it’s the balancing or how it feels to play.

Although, they do say the devs are catering to like, the worst players with the most terrible ideas, so maybe I should be careful what I say lol…

[Aravell]

I don't know about everyone else, but I'm purely against walking casts just for BRD. MCH can have it, they were initially designed as a pseudo-caster anyway.

BRD is one of the only high APM jobs remaining and I'd rather not see it slowed down with a forced cast on their filler. They've already slowed down NIN, then AST, if they slow down BRD, then the only fast job left is VPR, which I find boring.

I also don't see why walking casts is literally the only way forward some of you can see. Why can't all the physical ranged be diverse? MCH as a pseudo-caster job with a returned ammo system, BRD as a random proc juggling priority system job and DNC as a highly mobile mid-ranged support job for example.

[AlgernonBlackwood]

I don't know about everyone else, but I'm purely against walking casts just for BRD. MCH can have it, they were initially designed as a pseudo-caster anyway.
BRD is one of the only high APM jobs remaining and I'd rather not see it slowed down with a forced cast on their filler. They've already slowed down NIN, then AST, if they slow down BRD, then the only fast job left is VPR, which I find boring.

NIN (49.0) still has notably higher APM than BRD (46.0). MCH (46.2) is also about equally fast paced.

I wouldn't want cast times in BRD's burst, but you aren't doing much of anything during your other two songs at the moment, so I'd welcome any deviation from the current two button spam.