7.1 and Bards got nothing...

[Connor]

BRD's damage is good? 3rd to last damage dealer on total party contribution, is good? That's a joke right?

third to last lol. So there’s two jobs worse than it. Which is exactly my point lol.

From what I can see from funny number site it’s also the least popular of the three, but again, SE doesn’t really give a shit about actual gameplay in any way as long as the job gives the illusion of ‘balance’.

I mean, if you have some way to somehow increase Bard’s dps and not have it become as personal dps oriented as Machinist or as support oriented as Dancer and still having ‘acceptable’ personal dps output that cannot exceed that of any other role then sure. Oh and it’s support has to be good enough to make it a worthwhile job to bring but also has to be entirely passive and almost exclusively on 120s cooldowns. But until the devs actually look at the job as a whole and stop doing incredibly lazy basic potency changes the job is forever going to remain shit because it has literally more restrictions and caveats put on it by the devs than any other job in the game.

Tl;dr Bard gameplay is shit because the job can’t be anything but shit because devs are still petrified or that like, one week of Coils doing 4X Bard or 3X BRD 1X DRG or whatever. It’s desperately trying to squish a circle into a square hole to make Bard be some bizarre middle-of-the-road not too dps-y not too support-y ranged physical dps. To SE, third from the bottom is an extremely good place to be as a Bard, so it’s going to be hard to convince them to ever put it even higher.

[Valence]

So your point is saying that because there is 2 jobs following by an inch behind, then BRD's damage is doing "relatively good dps"? All those 3 jobs are all 10% behind the top group.

Dancer is also not more support oriented than Bard, that's a misconception that's been born from early ShB release, and has been further debunked by how the jobs both shifted in EW even further together (DNC getting more damage nukes and BRD getting more raid buffs in 6.0). They're always very similar on personal output. Increasing Bard's damage, much like Dancer's damage overall contribution, can be done by buffing the personal damage side, by buffing their buffs, or by doing both, whereas for MCH they can only buff it on the personal damage side unless they produce a raid buff action out of the blue for it.

I do not understand what you mean by "other restrictions and caveats than any other job in the game", can you elaborate?

[Connor]

So your point is saying that because there is 2 jobs following by an inch behind, then BRD's damage is doing "relatively good dps"? All those 3 jobs are all 10% behind the top group.

Dancer is also not more support oriented than Bard, that's a misconception that's been born from early ShB release, and has been further debunked by how the jobs both shifted in EW even further together (DNC getting more damage nukes and BRD getting more raid buffs in 6.0). They're always very similar on personal output. Increasing Bard's damage, much like Dancer's damage overall contribution, can be done by buffing the personal damage side, by buffing their buffs, or by doing both, whereas for MCH they can only buff it on the personal damage side unless they produce a raid buff action out of the blue for it.

I do not understand what you mean by "other restrictions and caveats than any other job in the game", can you elaborate?

I’m saying that to the devs this is the case. Not that it’s an objective fact.

I mean by restrictions and caveats that Bards being pigeonholed into an extremely specific and unsatisfying ‘middle ground’ concept where they want somehow want it to perfectly fit in a balance between Machinist and Dancer instead of ever just being it’s own job. And that’s purely conceptual; in terms of gameplay there’s everything from ‘it has to easy’ (ironically) to ‘the support has to be entirely passive’ (because apparently non-passive support is a Dancer thing lol). It has to be lower dps than melee and casters but it also has to somehow compete with the majority of them having better/equal raid buffs and utility.

I’d argue the only reason they even bothered to shift slightly was because there was a ton of negative feedback about them trying to make Bard some weird personal dps-er so Dancer could be the only support. Pretty sure even JP were fairly negative about things like no song buffs. But I’d also argue the changes they made were primarily performative and not actually indicative of them somehow changing their stance on where/what Bard should be.

[Nezerius]

So your point is saying that because there is 2 jobs following by an inch behind, then BRD's damage is doing "relatively good dps"? All those 3 jobs are all 10% behind the top group.

The bolded part here entirely depends on what FFlogs data you decide to use when it comes to the dps of all the jobs in the current Savage tier.

To elaborate, you've posted the 90th percentile cDPS ranking of standard comp parses, from patch 7.1. This shows BRD at a dps of 26,287 dps, which isn't actually that crazily behind SMN (26,529) or RDM (26,963), both of which saw potency buffs with the patch.

The issue with using this data, is that you're looking at parses during a catch up patch, one that has dropped 4+ months into a current tier. A significant part of the progression-minded raiders (who, in turn, are likely to parse higher) will be done gearing their main job by then. They'll either be raiding (and parsing) on alt jobs, or be done with savage until the next tier.
Using the same percentile cDPS ranking, but shifted towards the standard comp parses from patch 7.05 (the tier release patch), will suddenly paint a different picture. This shows BRD at a much higher dps (29,468), placing it above VPR, RPR, BLM, RDM, DNC, SMN, and MCH (in that order). Considering the absence of changes to BRD with 7.1, and a sudden drop of roughly 3k dps, it's pretty clear that a significant amount of these parsing BRDs are either done with savage, or playing on non-BRD jobs until the next tier).

And it's not like BRDs aren't being brought to ultimate either, considering 5 of the current top 10 FRU clears brought one.

[mallleable]

If BRD were actually balanced to be a true 'middle of the pack' job then its personal damage output should be closer to like RDM's or SMN's with out touching its raid buffs. Which means increasing the potency of skills like Burst Shot, Refulgent Arrow, its dots, or even lowering the cool down of Barrage to like 60 seconds or less that way it can maintain its own damage outside of buffs. But right now, BRD is pigeonholed into the same spot as DNC

Another thing to consider is the second they nerf PCT (if they do -- but they should), it will be a nerf to BRD, and every other job with a raid buff so thigs like potency buffs should be considered.

[Connor]

If BRD were actually balanced to be a true 'middle of the pack' job

They’re going for ‘middle of the pack amongst ranged physical’, not amongst all jobs in the game. They don’t seem to really care how phys ranged in general compare to casters. Otherwise they’d actually see the imbalance caused by casters having capabilities like Raise and higher personal dps and some utility lol. I mean, how do they expect Bard to compete with…an Esuna on cool-down and a healing boost nobody really wants or needs?

Raid buffs are so common now that it’s hard to say they’re really a ‘Bard’ / ‘Phys Ranged’ thing at this point, plus there’s Machinist muddying the waters since it’s somehow ‘taxed’ as if it had raid buffs purely for being in what the devs somehow think is a ‘support oriented role’.

But basically, the devs are looking at the fact that personal DPS output for phys ranged goes ‘Machinist > Bard > Dancer’ (even when it actually doesn’t lol) and being like ‘yes all things in perfect balance’. Completely disregarding how things compare between those three and the other dps sub-roles. It’s incredibly short sighted, but it’s what they seem to be doing I think.

[Valence]

I mean by restrictions and caveats that Bards being pigeonholed into an extremely specific and unsatisfying ‘middle ground’ concept where they want somehow want it to perfectly fit in a balance between Machinist and Dancer instead of ever just being it’s own job. And that’s purely conceptual; in terms of gameplay there’s everything from ‘it has to easy’ (ironically) to ‘the support has to be entirely passive’ (because apparently non-passive support is a Dancer thing lol). It has to be lower dps than melee and casters but it also has to somehow compete with the majority of them having better/equal raid buffs and utility.

I’d argue the only reason they even bothered to shift slightly was because there was a ton of negative feedback about them trying to make Bard some weird personal dps-er so Dancer could be the only support. Pretty sure even JP were fairly negative about things like no song buffs. But I’d also argue the changes they made were primarily performative and not actually indicative of them somehow changing their stance on where/what Bard should be.

I just don't understand this specific statement. How is BRD passive? The songs? Sure, but the bulk of the buffs exist and happen in the exact same way DNC's buffs happen: through buttons your press every 2min during burst, which in the case of BRD is Battle Voice and Radiant Finale. And DNC also has passives as well, being the partner buff and if your argument is that it's not passive because it gets refreshed by standard step, then so are the song buffs when you change songs.

I do not know what their stance is on where BRD stands because I don't read their minds, but if their actions are to be taken at face value, since the release of Endwalker and consolidated in Danwtrail, both jobs have been granted very similar profiles in the buff department.

The bolded part here entirely depends on what FFlogs data you decide to use when it comes to the dps of all the jobs in the current Savage tier.

To elaborate, you've posted the 90th percentile cDPS ranking of standard comp parses, from patch 7.1. This shows BRD at a dps of 26,287 dps, which isn't actually that crazily behind SMN (26,529) or RDM (26,963), both of which saw potency buffs with the patch.

The issue with using this data, is that you're looking at parses during a catch up patch, one that has dropped 4+ months into a current tier. A significant part of the progression-minded raiders (who, in turn, are likely to parse higher) will be done gearing their main job by then. They'll either be raiding (and parsing) on alt jobs, or be done with savage until the next tier.
Using the same percentile cDPS ranking, but shifted towards the standard comp parses from patch 7.05 (the tier release patch), will suddenly paint a different picture. This shows BRD at a much higher dps (29,468), placing it above VPR, RPR, BLM, RDM, DNC, SMN, and MCH (in that order). Considering the absence of changes to BRD with 7.1, and a sudden drop of roughly 3k dps, it's pretty clear that a significant amount of these parsing BRDs are either done with savage, or playing on non-BRD jobs until the next tier).

And it's not like BRDs aren't being brought to ultimate either, considering 5 of the current top 10 FRU clears brought one.

Point taken considering that a lot of jobs dipped by similar amounts while some didn't change much.
However people picking a rphys for ultimate isn't indicative to anything to me as far as I'm concerned. It's part of the social contract we have with SE and their party bonus. 5 out of 10 makes sense considering it's currently the less crappy rphys to take from.

[Connor]

quote.

Bard songs - Press song button, done.
Steps - Has to play steps mini game, has to consider Flourish cool-down, dance partner considerations.

Pretty sure I said in both posts that I’m not really counting raid buffs because firstly they’re not exclusive to the job (in case you noticed everyone that’s not BLM/SAM/MCH has one), and they’re literally defined by being 120-second button presses that could very easily be automated because they require literally 0 input from the player. And even then , which job is the only job in the game that actually interacts with that ability? Oh yeah, Dancer lol. It’s mostly a performative interaction by making you press more than 1 button, but that’s still more than any other job had to think about their raid buff. I guess maybe Ninja too? Do they even still need to hit positionals for Trick Attack to apply?

Just because Dancer is at a 1/10 in terms of active support doesn’t somehow make it ok for Bard to be a 0. Dancer only having to use 1 brain cell isn’t really a justification for Bard to use 0.5 brain cells - they should both feel enjoyable and interesting to play in all aspects of the job.

But let’s go further.

Minne - Press the song button, done (Gee I’m beginning to see a pattern)
Curing Waltz - possible consideration of dance partner and personal positioning, isn’t reliant on party members actually healing within the time frame of the buff. Oh also half the cool-down of Minne despite arguably offering the same healing.

Paean - Press a song button, done. Who’d have thought?! I guess you can say you have to look at the party list to see who has an ailment, but most people don’t even bother doing that anyway (and nobody cares about removable debuffs apparently anyway. Oh yeah, and a 45 second cool-down because fuck Bards I guess?
Improvisation - These are in no way functional equivalents but it’s the only support skill that’s not a rais buff left. Positioning of both self and accounting for party members needs to be considered. You could argue managing stacks too but nobody is going to channel longer than an ogcd outside of downtime anyway so that’s probably a moot point.

If you’re really still going to deny that Bard and Dancer function differently on how they perform their support role, I really don’t know what to say. Just because said role is already paper thin doesn’t mean those differences don’t exist.

Furthermore, by your logic Ninjas, Dragoons, Pictomancers, Summoners, Red Mages, Reapers, Monks, Astrologian, Scholar…are all providing support that is practically identical to what Dancer and Bard can do, because they have an automatic button press every 120s to raise party damage?

Things they could do to make Bard more active?
- 1.5 cast on songs like they were originally, would cause massive backlash because precious APM
- Button press musical notes mini game, but that’s just copy+paste from Dancer. Technically more APM if they’re 1.5s gcds or whatever like steps. Win?!
- MP costs and/or removed/reduced cooldowns.
- Higher potency but single target buffs that actually require any kind of conscious thought, ideally gcd though that’s practically impossible in current design
- Interaction between dps and support, i.e mp costs on songs but certain actions give mp restoration.
- Song exclusivity and rotational choice. I.E ‘do I want to sing Ballad for MP or Requiem for damage or whatever’ (please god someone don’t come at me with the ‘but it’ll always just be the damage song!!!!’, it’s not a literal example)
- Warden’s Paean updated to at least be in line with the actual spell it’s supposed to reflect lol. Esuna is now instant cast, gcd, has no MP cost…yet somehow Bards are only allowed to do it every 45 seconds? Why? Because ‘you’re not a healer’. Neither are Red Mages or Summoners yet they’re allowed to have healing/recovery support coming out of their ass lol

[mallleable]

Bard songs - Press song button, done.

Something we actually kinda see eye to eye with. This is generally why I'm pretty frustrated with BRD, it goes all in on passive mechanics. Song buffs are just slap a sticker on everyone, and call it a day. Almost all of its songs are damage buffs so its personal damage rotation feels meaningless. Its DOTs are passive. Even the song proc mechanics where you just wait for stuff to happen are passive compared to something like Brotherhood where everything you, and your party does is opening chakras. All on top of being a phys ranged with no environmental or positioning considerations for its gameplay unlike the other roles. Passive passive passive. BRD may be considered the "strongest" phys ranged, but it doesn't feel great to play. I suspect a lot of people are only playing it because it's "meta," and not because it's fun.

[Connor]

Something we actually kinda see eye to eye with. This is generally why I'm pretty frustrated with BRD, it goes all in on passive mechanics. Song buffs are just slap a sticker on everyone, and call it a day. Almost all of its songs are damage buffs so its personal damage rotation feels meaningless. Its DOTs are passive. Even the song proc mechanics where you just wait for stuff to happen are passive compared to something like Brotherhood where everything you, and your party does is opening chakras. All on top of being a phys ranged with no environmental or positioning considerations for its gameplay unlike the other roles. Passive passive passive. BRD may be considered the "strongest" phys ranged, but it doesn't feel great to play. I suspect a lot of people are only playing it because it's "meta," and not because it's fun.

Definitely agree, and I can only hope they plan to address this at some point. Whether it’s minor changes or even a SMN-style (not gameplay wise lol) rework where they look at the entire skill set again, how it interacts, how to make it feel more engaging, etc.

And yeah, I’d definitely say that Bard is a bit like healers in that people primarily take one because it’s (somewhat) necessary, not because they’re all having fun playing it lol.

I really hope SE won’t be dismissive of people’s concerns because of its ‘damage output’ or ‘balancing’ or whatever - because while that’s all well and good and important, it doesn’t really do anything about the actual gameplay of the job lol.

Personally, I wouldn’t mind if Bard did like 1 DPS as long as the job is fun and has fun/interesting ways to support the party lol. Not that I’d mind if it done 100,000 DPS, though it’d probably still end up behind Pictomancer somehow lol. And that’s not to say Dancer couldn’t use its own improvements in various area Tilana lol , but I do think they have that tiny bit more ‘activeness’ or ‘engagement’ with their non-offensive abilities compared to Bard.