Please reconsider an upcoming Black Mage change.

[Carighan]

If combat is going to evolve to be more engaging and position dependent, then casters also have to evolve alongside it or else they will become redundant.

Sure.

Of course, so far all they've done is make caster combat less engaging because having to mentally track valid movement times and balance that against your job's inherent need to stand still has been removed, with no replacement in gameplay. So empirically, all removing casts does is make gameplay less engaging.

I'm not saying that it couldn't be done. But we're now on the fifth expansion of slowly but continuously reducing the amount of casts needed, while also making the fights easier to do even if you had to cast (despite all the extra movement needed nowadays, because now the fights get designed for specific burst points and damage spikes and what players are doing or not doing during that). How many more times do we want to "wait" until maybe, just maybe, we accept that all existing data indicates that going for less-casting is a strictle negative change of gameplay engagement? We have only data points that indicate this, and not a single one that contradicts this. At what point do we accept reality?

[HikariKurosawa]

Sure.

Of course, so far all they've done is make caster combat less engaging because having to mentally track valid movement times and balance that against your job's inherent need to stand still has been removed, with no replacement in gameplay. So empirically, all removing casts does is make gameplay less engaging.

I'm not saying that it couldn't be done. But we're now on the fifth expansion of slowly but continuously reducing the amount of casts needed, while also making the fights easier to do even if you had to cast (despite all the extra movement needed nowadays, because now the fights get designed for specific burst points and damage spikes and what players are doing or not doing during that). How many more times do we want to "wait" until maybe, just maybe, we accept that all existing data indicates that going for less-casting is a strictle negative change of gameplay engagement? We have only data points that indicate this, and not a single one that contradicts this. At what point do we accept reality?

I just don't agree with this perspective. I get that you personally enjoy fights that are easier and less demanding mechanically. I get that you prefer the difficulty to come from managing your cast times or whatever. Most people enjoy the combat direction currently and consider dawntrail to be the best expansion from a gameplay perspective.

[Supersnow845]

I just don't agree with this perspective. I get that you personally enjoy fights that are easier and less demanding mechanically. I get that you prefer the difficulty to come from managing your cast times or whatever. Most people enjoy the combat direction currently and consider dawntrail to be the best expansion from a gameplay perspective.

Where are you getting that from

People are cautiously optimistic about the direction of the encounter design. Nobody is already calling DT the best expansion combat wise ever, that title is almost unanimously currently given to SB and BLM is strongly considered to be in a bad state right now

Even though DT has been better than EW that’s got nothing to do with caster cast times it has everything to do with reducing body checks, speeding up the rate mechanics come out (but not speeding up the mechanic) which engages the healer more and not having Jupiter sized hitboxes so melee uptime actually means something

[Carighan]

I just don't agree with this perspective. I get that you personally enjoy fights that are easier and less demanding mechanically. I get that you prefer the difficulty to come from managing your cast times or whatever. Most people enjoy the combat direction currently and consider dawntrail to be the best expansion from a gameplay perspective.

Oh I don't disagree with that, but I think Dawntrail fights are easier. And I like that. Hence I don't get the perspective. I want fights to be more involved, and Dawntrail initiatially (early dungeons + normal raids) showed some nice ideas, as for the time:

* Damage on the group was far far far higher, improving the healer experience massively. This did not last through outgearing as later dungeons (like the new one) and savage/extreme fights did not mirror this increase in damage, savage in particular continues the trend set in Shadowbringers, sadly.
* Movement was specific but didn't care about your job, highlighting the role differences more, and important aspect of job identity. Many early bosses did not make allowances for melees to be able to keep uptime 100% for example, and neither for casters to always be standing still every GCD. A very positive aspect, a caster that can just fire off abilities 100% of the time is something we already have, we call that a Bard (or, since the newest patch, a Black Mage, granted).
* Bosses recycle more abilities again, combining them. A good trend, as it allows more blind progging and less having to watch videos.

Sadly this did not last, and in particular Savage fights are back to the usual spiel, and in even more extreme ways. Coupled with a loss of job identity steadily progressing as expansions go by and everything becomes more and more samey, and apart from having to take a tether I might as well not care whether as r1 Red Mage I get asked to swap to m2 Reaper. It's all a wash at this point, do your burst every 2 minutes, do your 1 minute minor burst in between, use the near-static filler rotation, and everything else has been washed out. And I mean that's on a Red Mage, the caster with the most casts left at this point.

I grant you that if they would push the gameplay into the fight mechanics, I could see the point. But they don't, so why erode job gameplay? All this did is make the whole package (playing your character in a fight) more boring compared to previous expansions as while the fights are marginally improved even in savage and extreme, the loss of job gameplay more than offsets this and leads to a less engaging overall package. Healers don't have to heal, tanks don't have to tank, casters don't have to cast, melees ... actually still have to melee but like always the fight is designed to just about ensure this.

[GartredZW]

Healers don't have to heal, tanks don't have to tank, casters don't have to cast, melees ... actually still have to melee but like always the fight is designed to just about ensure this.

I think the fact that the giant hitboxes being the only thing to be reverted somewhat just proves that anyone who isn't a melee is a second class citizen in the eyes of Square. And the only reason Tanks are treated the way they are is because they're just viewed as more versatile melee DPS.
For an expansion that finally made melee disconnect from the boss sometimes, they added a melee with what's essentially a reverse-Xenoglossy. You use it for it's big damage to avoid overcapping, but it's also useful to help your movement. Only instead of time allowed to move, it's distance.

Also, I'd have to really math it out, but I think Pictomancer has the most casts out of the casters. Just goes to show how much mom and dad abandoned us to give all the attention to the new baby.

[Carighan]

Also, I'd have to really math it out, but I think Pictomancer has the most casts out of the casters. Just goes to show how much mom and dad abandoned us to give all the attention to the new baby.

Oh that's a good point, I mentally totally excluded Pictos thinking about that. Red Mage definitely casts more than Black Mage nowadays, who in turn is either about the same as Summoner. But I forgot Picto. Yeah you're right, they might spend both more total time casting and have more frequent interrupts in their movement for casting. Even with the hammer combo and Holy/Comet.

[Supersnow845]

Oh that's a good point, I mentally totally excluded Pictos thinking about that. Red Mage definitely casts more than Black Mage nowadays, who in turn is either about the same as Summoner. But I forgot Picto. Yeah you're right, they might spend both more total time casting and have more frequent interrupts in their movement for casting. Even with the hammer combo and Holy/Comet.

I believe with the flare changes the current distribution is

PCT (using no holy’s)>BLM>RDM>PCT (using holy every time you get it)>SMN

BLM was slightly ahead of PCT (who was about 15-20 seconds ahead of RDM in per 2 minute casts) before flare and the return of ice paradox but because of flares long cast time and ice paradox BLM has fallen behind

It’s still by far the caster that suffers the most from getting caught out without movement abilities (while it barely affects PCT at all)

[Carighan]

It’s still by far the caster that suffers the most from getting caught out without movement abilities (while it barely affects PCT at all)

Of course, that's assuming you do the standard rotation, not the 100% instant cast one. At which point Summoner feels staticky compared to Black Mage. :P But I'm expecting them to revert some of their changes since it feels clearly unintentional that this rotation is near-optimal (and in many actual fights, optimal).

[GartredZW]

Of course, that's assuming you do the standard rotation, not the 100% instant cast one. At which point Summoner feels staticky compared to Black Mage. :P But I'm expecting them to revert some of their changes since it feels clearly unintentional that this rotation is near-optimal (and in many actual fights, optimal).

The monkey's paw curls, and Transpose is removed from the game. instead it shares a button with umbral soul, and can't be used in combat.
Doesn't matter how awful this will make downtime feel. They beat all us mean ol' mages trying to think about things, and that's all that matters.

[HikariKurosawa]

The monkey's paw curls, and Transpose is removed from the game. instead it shares a button with umbral soul, and can't be used in combat.
Doesn't matter how awful this will make downtime feel. They beat all us mean ol' mages trying to think about things, and that's all that matters.

I mean that's a good change if you like hardcasting spells. Transpose should have been replaced with umbral soul from the beginning, and umbral soul should be usable in astral fire. Or keep it, make it only usable in astral fire, and have it button swap into umbral soul upon switching to umbral ice.

I have no attachment to instant cast black mage but I think it is cooler than the original non-standard. Personally I am a fan of rotations that are set in stone and just work correctly. People will always optimize games regardless, so it makes no difference. At the top level, you're always going to be doing the same thing. Standardizing rotations and making the meta organically happen is a hallmark of good job design in my opinion. No matter what your opinion is, once the job is solved there is only one right way of playing it.