Still no auto-combo for 123 on old jobs.

[Absurdity]

I'd agree that calling Vanilla WoW raids better than FF14 raids is... out there, to say the least

I don't really think it's such an out there opinion, depending on what you want out of a raid.

If you just want a difficult fight then yeah sure, vanilla WoW raids were a joke in terms of mechanical complexity or actual difficulty.
But they certainly felt more like you were actually "raiding" a real place in the world with your huge party of adventurers, slowly making your way through an unexplored location, killing whatever hostiles show up and grabbing everything valuable.

Despite both obviously just being games XIV's raids feel a lot more "gamified", you know what you're there for and so does the game so to speak. So it simply teleports you straight into a fighting pit, disconnected from anything else, with a small group and tells you to go beat up the thing and collect your reward.
ARR tried to go for the more vanilla WoW route but the smaller scale and disconnected "stages" meant it never felt quite right.

[TheDustyOne]

I don't really think it's such an out there opinion, depending on what you want out of a raid.

If you just want a difficult fight then yeah sure, vanilla WoW raids were a joke in terms of mechanical complexity or actual difficulty.
But they certainly felt more like you were actually "raiding" a real place in the world with your huge party of adventurers, slowly making your way through an unexplored location, killing whatever hostiles show up and grabbing everything valuable.


Despite both obviously just being games, XIV's raids feel a lot more "gamified", you know what you're there for and so does the game so to speak. So it simply teleports you straight into a fighting pit disconnected from anything else and tells you to go beat up the thing and collect your reward.

While it's off-topic; I do miss the lead-ups to the boss while raiding. I don't mind if they want to have Savage be just the fights, but can we at least have Normal versions be actual raids where it feels like infiltrating a boss' lair? I dislike that raids now are just rebranded trials.

[Kandraxx]

The argument doesn't need to be "scrounged up" when its incredibly valid for the circumstance lmao, but I'll indulge in this conversation one more time I guess. Lets look at what the OP said, which btw is clearly a WoW troll that doesn't play this game or does any meaningful content (see other threads on their thoughts that VANILLA WOW raids are better than FF14 lmao):



If you genuinely feel that this game has no good boss fights, the core gameplay is doomed, and that any form of arbitrary complexity can be removed without valuable replacement because its doomed anyway, then YES this game was never for you. You do not like this game and don't want it to get better. Is that you?

This game has it's goods and bads. It's is also not my creation, nor do I profit from it in any way so I don't need to put blind devotion on display. I feel for my needs (which as I said, is mostly side content) it's still worth the sub, but I wouldn't mind seeing certain aspects being improved on. Because the main game is barely an RPG at this point, let alone an MMORPG.

I'm not really going deeper into the WoW debate because by definition this game (being a console game, yes, that's what it ultimately is) it can't be as deep as WoW, so it's not even a fair comparison. Everything has to be designed in a way so someone with a controller can react and interact in an acceptable way. If you think that Vanilla WoW isn't much better at being an actual MMORPG (and all that comes with it) then that's your opinion and I'm gonna respect it.

But I can't really see how the mainstream content, being the various box encounters would be better than say, WoW's Blackwing Lair or Naxxramas. Let alone later all-time fav contents like Ulduar or ICC. In all different aspects.

In the end in 14 the bosses don't even have real mechanics, (the real mechanic is getting your bloated job down in a way so you meet the enrage timer x8), nor are they tactically hard but they're designed in a clever way so that there's a high probability that at any point, any single one of the 8 players will space out and flub something.

And the statistics speak for themselves, barely anyone cares about the savage/ultimate content. And for the people that seemingly did care, 2/3 are cheated or bought.

[TheDustyOne]

I'm not really going deeper into the WoW debate because by definition this game (being a console game, yes, that's what it ultimately is) it can't be as deep as WoW, so it's not even a fair comparison. Everything has to be designed in a way so someone with a controller can react and interact in an acceptable way.

I will push back on this; the cross-hotbar setup in this game allows for up to 48 buttons before needing to swap to a different primary cross-hotbar. You can have up to 16 skills per cross-hotbar, and 8 different hotbars, allowing up to 128 skills. Keyboard and mouse allows up to 10 hotbars with 12 buttons per hotbar, so in reality controllers can have up to 8 more buttons. The only real "advantage" that KB+M offers is targeting with a mouse rather than a d-pad or shoulder buttons, which considering that many players have been fine with that since 2013, that's not exactly a downside.

The game used to be far deeper than what it is now back when it was stuck on the PS3, saying that this game can't get to WoW levels of depth because it's on a console doesn't sound accurate.

[Shurrikhan]

I don't really think it's such an out there opinion, depending on what you want out of a raid.

True, true, but it was under the broader topic of complexity / being "dumbed down". Here, job identity is "dumbed down", but it's harder to get further "dumbed down" mechanically among "AAA" MMOs than... vanilla WoW raids.

While it's off-topic; I do miss the lead-ups to the boss while raiding. I don't mind if they want to have Savage be just the fights, but can we at least have Normal versions be actual raids where it feels like infiltrating a boss' lair? I dislike that raids now are just rebranded trials.

Same. Tbf, I don't want the "trash" to be truly, well, trash... but I would like to see a couple decently hard mob fights that act as mechanic hints for the coming boss and/or allow for more freeform strategy (focus these mobs down to remove this mechanic sooner).

Alliance Raids do a decent job of providing scenery and sometimes even a halfway interesting mob fight (oddly enough NieR raids may take the cake there, imo, though generally each raid has at least one decently neat bit of trash), but I would like also to see raids more in the vein of Bozja's but even more freeform (think Firelands, at the most extreme), with players having the ability to queue for the entire raid in one go in somewhat-customizable order, such that it feels like a real, lived-in place being stormed.

Oddly enough, there was a ton of talk about this back in 1.23, as Dalamud was first falling, due to the original Castrum Meridanium 8-man scenario-like dungeon. I think a lot of players to more stuff like that, but far more fleshed out and opened to varying strategies. Would also love to see that as a new content type -- maybe "Assaults", since we already wasted the word "raid", perhaps opposite more freely-paced "Forays" as ways of diving into setting themed off existing dungeons but likewise more open and lived-in?

[TheDustyOne]

Same. Tbf, I don't want the "trash" to be truly, well, trash... but I would like to see a couple decently hard mob fights that act as mechanic hints for the coming boss and/or allow for more freeform strategy (focus these mobs down to remove this mechanic sooner).

Likewise, it's a problem I have with modern dungeon design as well where the trash is there to be a health sponge we AoE down and nothing more. At most maybe there's a mob that needs an interrupt or Square will mix things up and have a mob that summons more mobs (Alzadaal). Gimme traps and environmental hazards that I need to kite mobs through and around (I remember some older ARR and HW dungeons did this, leading mobs into some spots would give a vulnerability debuff), give me a need to interrupt more often, or a reason to focus certain mobs down quicker, or reasons to use CC tools more than we currently do.

[Valence]

Watching these two people argue is like watching a brick wall talk to another brick wall.

The sad thing is that I went in this thread initially to exactly say that (as my first series of posts in that same thread will attest). One side is too afraid for SE to dumb it down some more without counterparts, the other wants to get rid of something that's braindead to them and replace it by more engaging counterparts. In reality everybody more or less agrees that what we have is crap, and everybody agrees that SE if they even get to work on it, would not give us anything interesting in return for trimming down the crap, as they're usually wont to do.

[Collin_Sky]

The sad thing is that I went in this thread initially to exactly say that (as my first series of posts in that same thread will attest). One side is too afraid for SE to dumb it down some more without counterparts, the other wants to get rid of something that's braindead to them and replace it by more engaging counterparts. In reality everybody more or less agrees that what we have is crap, and everybody agrees that SE if they even get to work on it, would not give us anything interesting in return for trimming down the crap, as they're usually wont to do.

Easy jobs. Complexity through mechanics. It's the obvious way SE is going. People need to accept it.
It's the only way to even come close to making the ultra casual and hyper hardcore happy at the same time.

[Absurdity]

Easy jobs. Complexity through mechanics. It's the obvious way SE is going. People need to accept it.
It's the only way to even come close to making the ultra casual and hyper hardcore happy at the same time.

It might make the ultra casual and hyper hardcore happy, but everyone in-between gets to pound dirt.
Because if you're even remotely above "pressing buttons randomly because you never bothered to even read tooltips" you quickly find that the gameplay is both incredibly boring and monotenous while the content you're doing is exactly the same.

Since you do not have the added complexity through mechanics, you're doing the same content that's designed for ultra casuals, all you're left with is atrocious job gameplay in complete faceroll content.
The same applies to the higher end players who still like to experience the rest of the game, spamming the same 4 (5 if you're doing ultimate) fights for 8+ months isn't exactly peak gameplay either.

In my opinion the whole "jobs need to be this watered down for the hyper casuals" is complete nonsense anyway, Stormblood showed that you could have more engaging jobs and casuals did their usual content just fine, they simply didn't engage with the job mechanics beyond the barrier of entry because said content never required it and still doesn't.

[Collin_Sky]

they simply didn't engage with the job mechanics beyond the barrier of entry because said content never required it and still doesn't.

This is the problem, and it's entirely why SE is doing what they're doing. The community as a whole has encouraged and accepted this behaviour, you yourself have done it just now with your reply. SE as a result have dumbed jobs down because they see lower skilled players just not using half of their abilities.