Still no auto-combo for 123 on old jobs.

[Shurrikhan]

If any of those people play other games they will understand what "combo" means,

Combo should have multiple routs for different purposes,

The problem is that 123 do not have actual game purpose, it is there because the sake of it,

If 123 could lead to different routs that each routs have specific purpose then yes keep it.

Other than that it is useless

Useless for complexity in itself, yes. So was Kaiten, similarly a non-decision unless one had made prior relevant mistakes. (That didn't make it necessarily useless on the whole, though.)

However, even a 123 is not useless in its net effect. It's effectively an arbitrary tax, weighing down everything else, even if only minimally to most players. This increases the strain of cognitive load (again, however minor) introduced by other gameplay elements, making them feel a bit more sufficient.

It's an incredibly lackluster way to do so -- a mostly wasted opportunity in each non-decision to exist without any way to adjust the timing of said non-decisions to make them feel more separately valuable -- but still adds to gameplay more than not having it.

(That said, I don't feel that the game is necessarily easier when combos are consolidated. GCDs provide rhythm and timing markers, and as such, not having separate buttons in turn means not having distinct tactile cues that --upon playing out the same opener at full uptime over a given fight, etc. multiple times-- would otherwise provide timing cues for the fight while also, for many, keeping one's brain engaged enough not to get lost even after wipe #~27.)

[BigCheez]

The problem is that 123 do not have actual game purpose, it is there because the sake of it,

The purpose is so that your filler rotation isn't just fingerbanging 1 button for 40 seconds.

Following your logic by extension the entire rotation serves no purpose because all of the buttons just deal damage. Why have more than 1 button? If we only have 1 button, why even have a button? Just make the whole rotation automatic.

The incessant streamlining needs to stop. The game honestly needs a full revert to Stormblood minus TP.

[Shurrikhan]

The game honestly needs a full revert to Stormblood minus TP.

There are definitely parts of combat for certain jobs that have been improved since Stormblood or would deserve improvement beyond their Stormblood states (though not necessarily remaining a net improvement all the way into Dawntrail or even Endwalker), but I agree on the whole.

Though, given that, short of a "~~ Classic" situation, we won't get a full revert, I'd be satisfied for now simply with replacing some non-decisions, thoughtless bundles, etc., again with actions more open to nuance -- ideally amid among enough identity improvements (and varied and multiple opportunities in each piece of content to leverage them) to pacify those overly worried about <3% raw throughput differences between jobs.

And, above all, I'd like for the game to stop trimming out gameplay wholesale just to avoiding necessary (or disproportionately helpful) technological improvements. Instead of removing any and all DoTs, improve the ease of tracking said DoTs across multiple enemies (especially one's target). Instead of forgoing difficulty in dungeons, simply increase the checkpoint count/usefulness. Etc., etc.

[TomsYoungerBro]

Just read what Shurrikan wrote instead of yapping nonsense. I don't feel like elaborating on what they explained perfectly already. But I do have the feeling that the only argument you manage to scrounge up is always invariably "learn to read"..

The argument doesn't need to be "scrounged up" when its incredibly valid for the circumstance lmao, but I'll indulge in this conversation one more time I guess. Lets look at what the OP said, which btw is clearly a WoW troll that doesn't play this game or does any meaningful content (see other threads on their thoughts that VANILLA WOW raids are better than FF14 lmao):

In WoW the devs gave you the skills and said do whatever you want with them, be creative, think outside the box. In FF14 they give you skills and instructions on how to use them if not outright enforcing a hardcoded rotation. There's no outside the box thinking because the box has very clear and narrow boundaries. Open World, as much as it even counts you can just press whatever, it doesn't even matter. Instanced content is 'pull all trash to the next wall/gated area and AoE with whatever' or dancing circles around a boss while playing your clockwork piano. That is the game, FF14. In a way Deep Dungeons actually provide the best designed content that allows for the most individualism and where cc, slow, root skills are actually used.

SE is aware of that, but they know that they would have to redo the entire game to fix this, so they try to add makeshift complexity by means of combos and piling up on skills and introducing the idea of 'button misclick' as a major PvE mechanic. How many ''deliver XXX potency damage for the first target, and XX% less for all remaining enemies, can be used when/after" buttons do you actually want on your job? It doesn't make the game any more interesting at all. It doesn't matter if you press 10 buttons to reduce an enemy that has no mechanics to zero health, or 50. How many times/hr do you want to press 1-2-3, while pretending that it is a high form of MMO gameplay that is to be preserved. MMOs specifically invented the auto-attack, so players wouldn't have to do that.

If you genuinely feel that this game has no good boss fights, the core gameplay is doomed, and that any form of arbitrary complexity can be removed without valuable replacement because its doomed anyway, then YES this game was never for you. You do not like this game and don't want it to get better. Is that you?

[Shurrikhan]

Lets look at what the OP said, which btw is clearly a WoW troll that doesn't play this game or does any meaningful content (see other threads on their thoughts that VANILLA WOW raids are better than FF14 lmao):

(Given that the context of her post focused equally on complexity as, say, job identity) I'd agree that calling Vanilla WoW raids better than FF14 raids is... a bit out there, to say the least, --even if I likewise tend to prefer content that is open to job identity in meaningful ways over tightening balance and content both towards mere button-flow variants on the same 2-minute cycle ideas or the like-- but I can't help but get the impression you never played ARR, Second Coil Savage, etc. Dungeons weren't always "pull all trash to the next wall/gated area", nor were raids always "striking dummy with added DDR". Addressing issues like those excesses of streamlining could as accurately be called a "revert" as a "rework".

I have several characters myself, so I'm not basing that assumption on your character only being a few years old, to be clear, but simply on the content of your replies. The game started off not so different from those separate abilities mattering, combos feeling each more like actions in their own right with more palpable progression through their skills, dungeons in which CC could be of use, frequent ability to run non-standard comps in dungeons, greater cross-role play, etc.

(Hell, the game launched with the main feature of "build your own job" and all primary stats being of use to everyone, if in varying ways, before Yoshida squished that customization into a micron-thick wire. Having that kind of customization would be unfit for the game as it's been since, yes, but even then we can't say preferences for that kind of customization have "never" fit this game.)

[Valence]

The argument doesn't need to be "scrounged up" when its incredibly valid for the circumstance lmao, but I'll indulge in this conversation one more time I guess. Lets look at what the OP said, which btw is clearly a WoW troll that doesn't play this game or does any meaningful content (see other threads on their thoughts that VANILLA WOW raids are better than FF14 lmao):



If you genuinely feel that this game has no good boss fights, the core gameplay is doomed, and that any form of arbitrary complexity can be removed without valuable replacement because its doomed anyway, then YES this game was never for you. You do not like this game and don't want it to get better. Is that you?

Tell me you never played anything before SB without telling me you never played anything before ShB..

[Collin_Sky]

Watching these two people argue is like watching a brick wall talk to another brick wall.

[IOwn92FCHouses]

Watching these two people argue is like watching a brick wall talk to another brick wall.

Welcome to the end result of the 1-2-3 threads. It happens in every single one given enough time.

And the trend of the idea being supported mostly by those with little game knowledge or skill continues!

[BabyYoda]

We didn't even talk about AoE combo yet,

It is another useless buttons, it is there because it is there,

Even if we consider 123 is a combo it should be atleast AoE too, why we have 6 buttons for it?

Having separate AoE combo specially for tanks it is too much and they have to at least merge them as single combo or find another solution

[Shurrikhan]

Having separate AoE combo specially for tanks it is too much and they have to at least merge them as single combo or find another solution

I mean, it's clearly not "too much". Most aren't having any trouble with it.

Is it wasteful, compared to allowing the ST and AoE combos to cross and interact in certain ways (even if that would come at some cost to the predictive decision-making or selecting a combo n gcds before the finisher one really needs/wants at a particular time)? Certainly.

But they're not so glaring an issue that they'd *need* addressing; having those actions separate or consolidated is simply a stylistic preference with certain advantages in each direction (though, as you note, less so for separate AoE keys nowadays, due to the lack of AoE in serious content), for which only one preference is currently allowed to be met... officially.

Unofficially, though, if you (A) don't like it, (B) play on PC, and (C) don't record yourself... it's not as a certain solution hasn't been commonplace for years now...