Still no auto-combo for 123 on old jobs.

[GoatOfWar]

And nobody is advocating to remove those combos in exchange for nothing else. And nobody disagrees that knowing SE's track record, that'd probably be what they'd do, realistically. It's been the same back forth for 13 pages by now with people talking past each other because they can't read what the other side writes and would rather argue against strawmen.

Square doesn't add meaningful abilities outside of expansion releases. They only remove things and give you one new ability to cramp into the burst window at expansion release. That's it.
That's all they ever add. You'd have to be naive to think square will look at the game in 7.2 and go.. ''yeah let's consolidate these buttons and add something meaningful to fill up the gap'' No, they don't do that and never have. They'll just remove things and make the game easier, like they always do. That was the feedback they got, so that's what they deliver. This is how they've been simplifying the game since Shadowbringers. They just remove and remove.

[Shurrikhan]

Square doesn't add meaningful abilities outside of expansion releases.

Tbf, they add few to none with expansion releases, either.

Which is why none of this conversation has ever been beholden to what the devs tend or tend not to do.

If we consistently constrained any and all discussion to the words, or even typical actions, of the devs, little to no improvement would be possible.

[GoatOfWar]

Tbf, they add few to none with expansion releases, either.

Which is why none of this conversation has ever been beholden to what the devs tend or tend not to do.

If we consistently constrained any and all discussion to the words, or even typical actions, of the devs, little to no improvement would be possible.

The only reason we're here today is constant incessant complaining about all minor gameplay friction.
I'm sure lot's of people had the idea that they could just build on the existing job designs elsewhere. But that's not what Square does.
You don't fix the game by adding to the pile just because it's mildly inconvenient to press 123. You just make the gameplay *even worse*.
Putting basic GCD combo's into 1 button would not be an improvement. It would make the game *even less* enjoyable.
What is the number one complaint that healers have had for the past 6 years?

[Shurrikhan]

Reminder of position before it's strawmanned, for context:

• I prefer separate keys. Apart from the general mechanics alike to targeting and WASD, I prefer a more even distribution of button-presses.
  
  
• However, I think weaponskills should have frequent and significant reason to be separate.
  
  
• So long as they do not in 99.9% of cases, though, I see no harm in un-neutering macros as to allow players to consolidate what they please (still to a limit of one queued skill per actuation).
  
  
• I don't particularly trust the devs to implement consolidations well. I would rather simply leave such things up to the players, with the devs simply giving (back) the tools for that.

What is the number one complaint that healers have had for the past 6 years?

Lack of interest in their between-heals downtime, including offensive actions.

And what is the number one "terrible idea" they have noted would in no way solve that issue?

Adding bloat buttons that amount to the very same filler action, just at greater button cost -- as per combos.

Using 1 key for 1 action or using 4 keys for 1 action still leaves just 1 action, plus or minus tactile cues at cost of added button count. You get either tactile cues or better managed button-space, one or the other.

For my part, all else being equal, raids would be literally easier with the buttons separate because I have plenty of comfortable space as is (mostly from a combination of MMO mouse and having reworked my Caps key to a mod key), making those cues more valuable than the reclaimed button-space. I doubt I'm alone in that. There is no pure ease-of-performance advantage to button consolidation in practice (e.g., in actual content of any seriousness).

Inb4 posting on a former from which I have always posted regardless of characters play, instead of one's current main, renders this opinion (or even just simple summary of healer discourse) null.

___________

But hey, it's also been far more than 6 years of people asking for greater actual complexity only to be asked "With what button space?!" and in turn for even the slightest musing about consolidating bloat and rarely-used levers (specific-case or long CDs that render the more nuance-capable CDs beneath them redundant, obligatorily bundled CDs, mutually exclusive actions, and/or rigid sequences, etc.) to be demonized.

• We can't remove Role Actions in favor of greater individual flavor, no matter the likely increase to actual complexity and job identity, because "oh no, my Rampart!"
  
  
• Can't remove Arms Length or Surecast in favor of actually paying attention to mechanics or using job-specific nullifiers because being able to choose which (for most of their content, 100% of) knockback mechanics to completely and easily invalidate is so much more "complex" than using your damn tools.
  
  
• Can't allow macros to actually be unneutered because then people might ask for more placeable ground AoEs back or consolidate pairs of skills that make zero sense to keep separate.
  
  
• Can't even offer an option to include a button to put one's single-target direct-damage filler action into a single key because "No, my illusion of complexity that couldn't possibly survive the tiniest fear of facing more difficulty than is necessary, forcing me to switch no matter how much more fun and useful to fight memory it might be for me to leave them separate!"

I can't say I'm shocked at this point.
__________

If we're to speak of trends and vilify any and every suggestion when it's still in the earliest bounds of discussion (e.g., before any matched conditions, etc.), then it's worth noting also that time and time again, many here have chosen illusion of complexity and nostalgic anchors over any chance for meaningful revitalization.

I am not saying you are doing that, per se, but just as you may see any individual suggestion as part of a larger, problematic course, that, too, is a problem you are perpetuating by dismissing offhand any sort of potential contexts or imaginings beyond what we have right now.

If you're to conflate individual space-saving suggestions necessarily with a motive of dumbing the game, then it's worth considering also what ways to readd meaningful complexity to the game behavior like yours would preclude.

_____________

Alas, if even pointing out an obvious strawman or conflation falls to, within even just a couple posts...

Just fuck off

...then opportunities for constructive discourse are probably mostly dead already.

[Valence]

Square doesn't add meaningful abilities outside of expansion releases. They only remove things and give you one new ability to cramp into the burst window at expansion release. That's it.
That's all they ever add. You'd have to be naive to think square will look at the game in 7.2 and go.. ''yeah let's consolidate these buttons and add something meaningful to fill up the gap'' No, they don't do that and never have. They'll just remove things and make the game easier, like they always do. That was the feedback they got, so that's what they deliver. This is how they've been simplifying the game since Shadowbringers. They just remove and remove.

Are you talking to me? Where did I even say that SE will look at the game and go "yeah let's add meaningful things to the kit in 7.2!"?
This is again, arguing against strawmen, nothing more. Of course SE isn't going to do that, they just sanded down the jobs even more that very last patch.

Yes, they are. In fact, I haven't seen anyone suggest something to replace the lost combo actions.

In addition to this, when was the last time that SE added something to a job to increase it's complexity? If they consolidate combo actions, there is an approximately 0% that they would add anything new to fill the empty space.

Are you actually reading what people write or making it on purpose? The amount of mentions asking to bring other buttons that interact in meaningful and engaging ways with the kit instead? No? Flew right above?
That's exactly what I'm saying. Both sides are talking past each other because they're just interested at shooting at strawmen.