Frontlines 7.1

[IDontPetLalas]

I'm just going to address a couple of OP's points - (1) most people were happy with Frontlines and could have fun with it"- highly subjective, I could point to quite a few people who weren't happy with the prior iteration for quite a few reasons. In any case, there were good points with the prior version, but I could point to a very, very long list of improvements that could have been made.

(2) Your concluding that"a lot of the most enthusiastic FL players play to challenge themselves to either do a very high amount of damage or rack a maximum of kills. When you nerf the individual impact of players, you create a very casual pvp audience and NA data centers certainly don't need more people who are "only here for their quick xp regardless of the outcome of the match". " OK, who doesn't want to rack up kills? However how do you conclude that the changes to FL are going to lead to people going to the complete oppposte end of the spectrum, "just here for XP" mindset? If someone is just there for the ultra-high dopamine rush, why would they even be doing FL in the first place- I'm asking honestly- it wouldn't the game I would seek out for PvP. I don't see it happening.

[Akimitsu]

snip

1: I terms of job balancing I can assure you it was mostly ok (and no previous pvp iteration had achieved this level of balance), SAM/BRD/SGE could have used a buff or some changes imo but taken separately, things were balanced. If you're refering to the gameplay of the different Frontline modes, this is another issue entirely, which I haven't even talked about in the op.

2: Are we playing the same game? 95% of players in FL are there for their daily roulette and couldn't give a damn about their performance in a match. Sure they want kills but they certainly don't care about the most efficient way to achieve it, or getting better. Having played all iterations of pvp and Frontlines, every new one made FL more casual in a bad way, for various reasons. All of the successive pvp iterations had 1 thing in common; the gradual reduction of individual skill impact.

If someone is just there for the ultra-high dopamine rush, why would they even be doing FL in the first place

What kind of question even is that? People play the pvp mode they enjoy, I don't like CC, I play FL.

[IDontPetLalas]

1: I terms of job balancing I can assure you it was mostly ok (and no previous pvp iteration had achieved this level of balance), SAM/BRD/SGE could have used a buff or some changes imo but taken separately, things were balanced. If you're refering to the gameplay of the different Frontline modes, this is another issue entirely, which I haven't even talked about in the op.

2: Are we playing the same game? 95% of players in FL are there for their daily roulette and couldn't give a damn about their performance in a match. Sure they want kills but they certainly don't care about the most efficient way to achieve it, or getting better. Having played all iterations of pvp and Frontlines, every new one made FL more casual in a bad way, for various reasons. All of the successive pvp iterations had 1 thing in common; the gradual reduction of individual skill impact.
What kind of question even is that? People play the pvp mode they enjoy, I don't like CC, I play FL.

It's not a question- it's an observation - PvP is not part of the game's core design, it isn't well supported, FL barely gets any attention from the dev team- there's nothing to stop someone who is extremely competitive and extremely skilled at PvP from being in FL, but wouldn't other games being both more interesting and challenging? That's my point. By the way- I am not saying that FL does not deserve more attention from the dev team, nor am I in any way telling anyone what they should or should not be doing.

[Mawlzy]

(2) Your concluding that"a lot of the most enthusiastic FL players play to challenge themselves to either do a very high amount of damage or rack a maximum of kills. When you nerf the individual impact of players, you create a very casual pvp audience and NA data centers certainly don't need more people who are "only here for their quick xp regardless of the outcome of the match". " OK, who doesn't want to rack up kills? However how do you conclude that the changes to FL are going to lead to people going to the complete oppposte end of the spectrum, "just here for XP" mindset? If someone is just there for the ultra-high dopamine rush, why would they even be doing FL in the first place- I'm asking honestly- it wouldn't the game I would seek out for PvP. I don't see it happening.

I think there is a subset of players who like FL because they can kill so many players at once in a premade. gidsonBrand has stated as much. I don't understand it at all, partly because in any game I play I'm trying to win rather than pad. I think it's conceivable that with skill expression being diluted by the current... situation... the XP-motivated crowd may become a larger contingent in matches, simply because people who enjoy responsive PvP quit FL and 14 for other games.

[IDontPetLalas]

I think there is a subset of players who like FL because they can kill so many players at once in a premade. gidsonBrand has stated as much. I don't understand it at all, partly because in any game I play I'm trying to win rather than pad. I think it's conceivable that with skill expression being diluted by the current... situation... the XP-motivated crowd may become a larger contingent in matches, simply because people who enjoy responsive PvP quit FL and 14 for other games.

I believe that this is a fair assessment, however I'm still kind of scratching my head over this because I've never found PvP in FL to be responsive in comparison to other games. I've done my best , but it's just never really felt good. My be due partially to my location, perhaps other people are more fortunate.

[Mawlzy]

I believe that this is a fair assessment, however I'm still kind of scratching my head over this because I've never found PvP in FL to be responsive in comparison to other games. I've done my best , but it's just never really felt good. My be due partially to my location, perhaps other people are more fortunate.

Understood, it's always been somewhat janky for known reasons. My guess is the latest iteration makes skill application more random, but honestly it could just be we're not working around the problems effectively yet. I'm fairly close to the NA servers and... ick.

I'm wondering if the devs have decided that the solution to bad netcode-related response is to build in additional delay to wash out the intrinsic problem with an extrinsic one. If so, oopsie.

[Bonoki]

I think there is a subset of players who like FL because they can kill so many players at once in a premade. gidsonBrand has stated as much. I don't understand it at all, partly because in any game I play I'm trying to win rather than pad. I think it's conceivable that with skill expression being diluted by the current... situation... the XP-motivated crowd may become a larger contingent in matches, simply because people who enjoy responsive PvP quit FL and 14 for other games.

I can absolutely confirm this. I’m in a Discord server where people treat PvP like it’s parsing in PvE, prioritizing padding their stats over actually winning the match. To them, having the highest number of kills or the most damage is what matters because it makes them look like they contributed more and, by extension, look better than everyone else. Winning the match has become secondary to boosting their own numbers. When I first got invited to the server, I was genuinely shocked by how widespread this mindset is. It’s not just a few players—it’s a significant number, and they even run premade groups nightly with this exact goal in mind. It’s like parsing culture bleeding straight into PvP.

[Mawlzy]

I can absolutely confirm this. I’m in a Discord server where people treat PvP like it’s parsing in PvE, prioritizing padding their stats over actually winning the match. To them, having the highest number of kills or the most damage is what matters because it makes them look like they contributed more and, by extension, look better than everyone else. Winning the match has become secondary to boosting their own numbers. When I first got invited to the server, I was genuinely shocked by how widespread this mindset is. It’s not just a few players—it’s a significant number, and they even run premade groups nightly with this exact goal in mind. It’s like parsing culture bleeding straight into PvP.

This is actually why I left a couple of large PvP Discord servers. Made me feel queasy. It's a great shame, because some of those guys have done a lot of good (RW would be stone cold dead rather than just ailing without them), but you've described the situation perfectly. It's personal stats first, with winning little more than a side bonus if it happens.

[YouWereIndicted]

This is actually why I left a couple of large PvP Discord servers. Made me feel queasy. It's a great shame, because some of those guys have done a lot of good (RW would be stone cold dead rather than just ailing without them), but you've described the situation perfectly. It's personal stats first, with winning little more than a side bonus if it happens.

In all fairness, as I am someone who occasionally pads. It is much easier to pad and play for your numbers and yourself than it is to control 23 other people on your team. Some outcomes of the match are just out of your control but playing for numbers and performing well on a job is still something you can do plenty. I think the only issue with only playing to pad is if you end up hitting the wrong team because it is either weaker, squishier (more ranged = bigger numbers) or they're clumped up more. Besides from that I don't think there's any issue only playing to pad so long as you're stopping the winning/stronger team as well. I think doing both is just fine and it's how I play.

In terms of looking for damage, I'd be more impressed at a SAM or a WAR doing over 1.5m damage than I would some ranged/caster anyway. Some jobs just make it easier like right now RDM/AST/SMN are the top dogs from my experience. Gone are the days of SCH! (good riddance)

[Mawlzy]

In all fairness, as I am someone who occasionally pads. It is much easier to pad and play for your numbers and yourself than it is to control 23 other people on your team. Some outcomes of the match are just out of your control but playing for numbers and performing well on a job is still something you can do plenty. I think the only issue with only playing to pad is if you end up hitting the wrong team because it is either weaker, squishier (more ranged = bigger numbers) or they're clumped up more. Besides from that I don't think there's any issue only playing to pad so long as you're stopping the winning/stronger team as well. I think doing both is just fine and it's how I play.

In terms of looking for damage, I'd be more impressed at a SAM or a WAR doing over 1.5m damage than I would some ranged/caster anyway. Some jobs just make it easier like right now RDM/AST/SMN are the top dogs from my experience. Gone are the days of SCH! (good riddance)

I understand working with 23 (or 20) randos can be frustrating, but I still think the priority should be helping the team win. I know many premades on Aether who don't communicate with the team (bit of a clue when the leader types "vc" in party chat and that's the last we hear from them), are clearly padding, or in some cases carrying out a vendetta against an opposing premade.

Since such players tend to be the most skillful, it's absolutely crushing if they focus first on K/A instead of team goals. It's incredibly selfish (although not as bad as AFKers before someone counters with that). Obviously sometimes padding coincides with team goals, simply because wiping out opponents is important. But I'd bet many of these instances of 2nd place going after 3rd arise from padders feeding on the weakest opponents.