Koana will save the hhetso

[glassflower]

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I dislike Y'shtola as well and audibly groaned when I found out that we would be having to spend a 'significant amount of time with her' this patch. I do think they should expand more on how these characters are actually solving these problems and don't like that they are off-screened, for whatever reason that might be. We also have to look at like, the interaction here though -- he's her older brother, and he studied in Sharlayan, a naive Wuk Lamat is going to praise her doting older brother as smart.

I can see where you're coming from in regards to him being able to reel in his emotion -- but it's not inconsistent with his character. He's originally presented as calm, detached and reasonable, but we learn very quickly that this is not all that there is to him. Underneath of that mask, he is hot-headed and passionate, especially when it comes to protecting others that he cares about. I think it's pretty disingenuous to be like 'he was going to throw his life away for some cows', even though, yeah, it was honestly a pretty dramatic act. But given that he likely blames himself for his father's death, plus his newfound duty as Vow... He's just connected with a culture that he knows is his own, but one he has an utter disconnect with. He realizes that these people treat these animals as beings part of their community instead of 'just animals', and realizes that, for the Hhetsarro, this is no different than if their beloved sister were harmed.

It's also worth noting that the... yes, relatively shonen-esque way that he speaks in Japanese does say something different than the English. Instead of saying, "I will say the hhetso!", Koana says "皆を護ってみせる……！", essentially, "I will save everyone!" Now, since I didn't read the entire thing for context, he could be referring to all hhetso, but it's also very possible he is talking about a collective everyone under his rule here. I think given that, it's easier to contextualize his feelings in that moment and see the full picture more clearly. And perhaps someone will take notice that Koana does do reckless things when he's faced with someone or something precious to him being harmed -- it could be another point of growth to learn to control that. We've seen G'raha do much the same in the past, albeit he had much more time as a ruler, perhaps he was similar when he began? I would love to see Koana and G'raha interact and see what growth they can lend each other.

[chizLemons]

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No, you misunderstand. I don't dislike Y'shtola. I disliked how she was written in the EW patches forward. She used to be much more interesting. We actually saw her being intelligent and curious many times before...but that was never shown again since the main writer change. If things stay as they are, I can bet that we're going to give her the Mcguffin at the end of a patch and the next one she will show up with the answers already.

Wuk Lamat saying he is smart is NOT the problem. The problem is that the story doesn't give me a reason to BELIEVE her. I don't want characters telling me what I need to think about a character, I want to see their actions and reach that conclusion myself. They can talk about them being smart, sure. But if I don't see them being smart, it is bad writing, it is forced, and not believable. It tells me that the writer doesn't know how to make it true.

I understand that yes, this IS what they were GOING FOR. But can you truly say the execution was good? This is a problem all over Dawntrail. There's a lot of interesting themes and messages they were trying to convey, but the execution was clunky, and I'm not going to say it's good because I can see what they were TRYING to do. We used to have actual good writing, and that's important. It's not like people can't understand that's the message and why he wanted to protect the hetsarro. It's how he is doing it, which is not very well done, not in character, and bad shonen-esque.

And again, what he is actually saying in that scene isn't the problem, it's his actions. I play with JP audio, and he does say during that part that he will save them even if it costs him his life, wich is overly dramatic and unnecessarily reckless even for him. Specially because we are also supposed to believe he's been working as the Vow of Reason for a while, meaning he should know the importance of being alive and how he's got better ways to help than that.
I don't buy it. If it was supposed to be a point of growth of his recklessness, then the writing should be pointing out towards that, not immediately having someone congratulate him for risking his life for the rroneek and moving on.

I understand why someone said it looked like a Wuk Lamat moment, because it would be in character for her to do that, because she did a lot of reckless stuff like that throught 7.0...but I don't think she was replaced by Koana, I just think they didn't think it through before writing this scene, since it is supposed to be Koana's "I now accept and want to protect the culture I come from!" kinda thing. But it still feels out of character and juvenile.

[glassflower]

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I've already conceded that I think they need to do better with showing intelligence, but it's been an issue for a while.

I think that the execution of this patch, in conjunction with Dawntrail proper, was pretty good, yes. I think, in an expansion that has been nothing but bombastic and over-the-top, why not just... play into it? Does it have to be slow-burn and cerebral to resonate? I am not taking 7.1 as a standalone patch, I'm taking it in conjunction with Dawntrail proper, what we learn about Koana there -- given his prior actions, jumping forth to protect Wuk Lamat... this is a callback to that. I struggle to believe the "he's been Vow for a while now", because there is no concrete timeline for the game. Am I then supposed to believe that they've been leaving Alexandria hanging for months while doing... nothing? I don't think so. I also didn't say that it was a point of growth, but that it could be one that they develop in further patches. These characters are presumably around to stay, I think they will be changing more as time goes on.

How would you have preferred he acted in that situation? What would have made it 'well-executed' to you?

[chizLemons]

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They try to show Wuk Lamat's growth for being "Vow for a while", and there's an effort of showing her being a little more responsible and a leader after the coronation. She also appears in this patch saying it's been a while, so some time passed there between 7.0 and 7.1 ingame.
Why would (the very little we see of) character development be limited to her? Characters shouldn't be paused like they don't exist offscreen, they should still be existing and doing stuff in the world. In fact, they love to make important stuff happen off-screen in Dawntrail, so what would make me believe Koana wouldn't be keeping his duties during that time?
And even during the coronation and 7.0, he was vow of reason for...a reason. He stayed behind instead of going to Solution 9 during the second because of that, even. I'd assume that the vow of reason, the guy constantly being called smart, that's been left behind to take care of people as a leader because someone had to be there, that even from the very beginning was supposedly trying to make his country better by building technological stuff from Sharlayan around, would at least briefly understand the importance of...being a leader, or searching for other solutions.

It doesn't have to be "all slow-burn and cerebral" to resonate, it never really was, but it must be written in a way that makes sense to the situation, to the character, and that gets the message across.

He could've protected the rroneek in any other way instead of just jumping in front of him yelling I WILL SAVE EVERYONE EVEN IF IT COSTS MY LIIIIIFE. He just didn't need to risk his life for it like that, because the only reason he was risking his life away like that was to add stakes to the scene.
If somehow it was important for him to throw his life away, then make the link between his father's death, as you were trying to claim there was, ACTUALLY emotional. Show me him bonding with a rroneek before it, getting attached to the culture, in a way that makes me feel that losing that rroneek, seeing them killed would mean something to him - we don't see that. We go around a 0/4 quest and when we're back, he's completely "I love hetsarro culture and will die for it". It feels out of nowhere.

By the way, remember how right at the beginning of 7.0, he only ever opened his mouth to speak of Sharlayan, then we learned his backstory and suddenly he only ever talked about Wuk Lamat? Or how Bakool Ja Ja changed personality out of nowhere because we learn of his backstory and now he's a good guy and even speaks differently? It's the same writing issue. There's no gradual development.
Gradual doesn't necessarily mean SLOW as in taking a long time, by the way, but we have to see the path from point A to B, not teleport to it after getting one single lore fact.

[glassflower]

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I think regardless of if he didn't need to risk his life, it's in line with his character. It's not the first time he's acted like that. We do get screentime of him bonding with the rroneek, as well as this being his culture that he doesn't know anything of. Yes, it was short. I can't debate that. I bring you a counterpoint in that we don't need to see the rroneek specifically because this is something more than just 'the rroneek' for Koana. It is also immediately apparent that this is parallels with the fact that his parents did the same. It is in his blood to protect what he cares for fiercely with his life. I'm not saying someone needs to be crying tears for Koana jumping in front of the rroneek, but the scope is much larger than 'it's just some dumb animal that we didn't even see on screen for more than a few seconds'. It's not about the rroneek. This animal means something to his culture, and the Hhetsarro themselves are part of his kingdom. I also don't really think it's fair to say he's happy and loves them all of a sudden.

The exact text there is "I understand the significance of the hhetso. They nourish the Hhetsarro as they grow, and provide warmth and companionship in a harsh and unpredictable world." This links to Koana's own feelings toward the Pelu who saved him as well as Gulool Ja Ja. Again, it's symbolism at play here and what the rroneek represents for Koana that causes him to act in that way, and I can't really understand the viewpoint that it's out of character for him. I think for both Wuk Lamat and Koana, we are only at the beginning of their journey. That gradual development may yet happen. I don't think this was meant to be a 'look how much he's grown' moment by any means.

I agree that Bakool Ja Ja was not earned, by the way. It would have been better if he'd just stayed comically evil villain but of course we all just wanna hold hands and play on the playground with our friends.

[chizLemons]

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Did you really, actually feel, while watching the scene, the strong attachment he had to his culture during that very brief moment, that was strong enough to make him jump in front of a rroneek dramatically saying he'd save it even it costs his life? You're saying what they were TRYING to convey. Did they succeed? I don't think they did. The scene isn't good because of what they were trying to do, it's bad because of what they failed to. Without the proper buildup, the scene falls flat.

I can also repeat that I'd like to SEE him bonding and being attached to them and not telling us, but even the phrase you pointed out feels not at all justification for risking his life. I really can't see how it's linked to the Pelu. It could make sense, but it's not there... you can argue that Koana would forget reason and risk his life for what's important to him, but I didn't feel the attachment. Unless you are saying that he would defend absolutely anything he kinda likes, which I wouldn't say it's in character for him. It was more justifiable during 7.0 when he wanted to protect Wuk Lamat - it also felt a little bit out of nowhere, since he barely even spoke to her and then all of a sudden he just tells us all of his life story and how he always loved his little sister - but we knew they had a family bond and WL cared about him, so there was SOMETHING.

The way this part was written, we get there to solve a problem, and he was hesitant to go because of his past. We have lore dumped on us during a 0/4 quest away from him, that we go to learn about them to solve said problem. We come back, and Koana says he understand that culture and wants to protect it (in that short time!!!!!!!). Then, next moment, he is in front of a rroneek risking his life for it. We kill the crystal dinosaur, then, conveniently, someone talked about a couple 20 years ago that coincidentally happened to be his parents. He gains the trust of the people there because he was willing to risk his life for the rroneek, which is the game's writing telling us "look, he did the right thing!".
Now not only he loves his culture that he used to despise, but he's got no problems at all with his past and parents anymore. From that little time we spent there, his whole view and attitude on his entire past changed completely.

I don't think that's good writting at all for this game. I understand you enjoy it with your interpretation, I just hope I could convey some of the reasons why me and a lot of people don't. The game's narrative wasn't like that before Dawntrail. We didn't need to come up with symbolisms that weren't inteded, justifications and suspend disbelief for main character's actions to make sense.

[glassflower]

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I mean, you're talking about the writing, and I'm also talking about the writing, because presumably I feel incredibly different than you did. I love Koana and find him one of the best written characters in the entirety of XIV, certainly one of the best in Dawntrail. I have explained ad nauseam here my reasons that are supported by the text itself why I think this was in character for him and a good choice. By the way, the hyperbole there makes your point make less sense -- I don't think Koana ever hated his culture. I think he was, understandably, upset and hurt by the fact that his parents left him behind as a child, and also obsessed with what he thought was 'progress'. But as he learns, technological advancements don't have to mean overlooking cultural ways. The black and white thinking, taking out these nuances seems like a skill issue, personally.

I liked the scene, a lot, actually. "Showing" does not have to be literal actions, it can be in the subtext surrounding a matter as well, which we get plenty of here, and I think you're overlooking that in order to get internet brownie points for fighting the 'cringe Dawntrail enjoyer' on the forums.

I think most people have nostalgia glasses on for this game and are averse to change, if you ask me. I never connected with any of the characters in previous iterations beyond feeling a little bit sorry for them, if we want to play that game. If we want to talk about something with no build up, how about the fact that we killed the gods that were the unique belief system in Eorzea.