7.1 - Jobs, meet sandpaper

[TheGrimace]

Removing the lock on Ninja is the best thing to happen to Ninja since 2.4, and I say this as a Ninja main.

[TheGrimace]

Removing the lock on Ninja is the best thing to happen to Ninja since 2.4, and I say this as a Ninja main.

Hells, the lock on Ten Chi Jin. Why's this forum so rough to edit on mobile?

[seolhyun]

Removing the lock on Ninja is the best thing to happen to Ninja since 2.4, and I say this as a Ninja main.

most ppl saying it is bad in this thread dont even play ninja. TCJ change is good.

[Azurarok]

I can't speak from direct experience in current savage as I hated the ShB+ changes to NIN, but it wouldn't surprise me if NINs need to TCJ during M4SP2 towers and simply can't because of exact phasing of ability uses and when movement starts.

As far as I've tried with it, there's enough time between each Chain Lightning blast to use TCJ during it

[ForteNightshade]

And that’s why punishment for a high damage mechanic is good

If punishment is only attached to failure of weak secondary and tertiary skills you functionally don’t have punishment

Case in point, positionals. Which may as well be deleted at this point with how negligible they are. To be fair, I don't actually think they provide much gameplay intrigue but there's scarily little less left nowadays.

TCJ itself is a fake cast time, but a 1-2s 'cast time' all the same. I can't speak from direct experience in current savage as I hated the ShB+ changes to NIN, but it wouldn't surprise me if NINs need to TCJ during M4SP2 towers and simply can't because of exact phasing of ability uses and when movement starts. You also can't slide cast it. So it stands to reason that if you have fight design that doesn't let you stand still, then things like TCJ not keeping you still or adding anti-drift mechanics to LL becomes, simply, mandatory.

While I'm fairly certain TCJ doesn't align with that mechanic, let's pretend that it does for example sake. You have more than enough time to execute all three mudra and still get to your spot. In fact, you have some added flexibility due to it being your last two minute sequence of the fight, thus drifting doesn't matter nearly as much. Either way though, getting to your tower or baiting a gun is relatively forgiving. You could either TCJ immediately then make it to your spot, pre-position ahead of time (melee only have two positinals they can ever be in) or get to your spot first then TCJ. The point is there would be workarounds.

With all that aside, I don't it's TCJ itself that upsets people per se but rather it's another example of soothing out even the slightest bit of friction jobs have. If they replaced TCJ, positionals, Nastrond or what have you with something else, you might not see the mounting frustration a lot of players have. Instead, they've continued to gut jobs down to their very basic core all to chase what is essentially a ghost; that elusive casual player who cares enough about their damage for abilities like this to be a pain point but also doesn't want to put in any real effort to improve.

[Hausti]

Best thing about this patch is astro finally getting a gapcloser (even though its only for pvp). Wonder how long it will take them to make it for pve too...

[CuteBucket]

I don't know if my hotbar set up is just wildly different from others, but I cannot recall the last time I ever messed up TCJ while playing NIN except for like...when I was new and had just unlocked it and was trying it for the first few times. I don't know what to tell y'all. It really was not a difficult move to pull off. I found timing other parts of NIN more challenging than timing TCJ. Wow, once every 2 minutes you need to plant for for about 2 seconds. That's not nearly as much planting as many other jobs require, but it did still take some thinking ahead and strategizing, which I guess is anathema now.

[Jangles]

You are arguing with ghosts, I do not want cast bars on NIN, I don't think NIN is unfair because it has ranged moves. Liking how TCJ was doesn't mean I want it to be the same as SAM, it interacted differently with the fight and kit than SAM's castbars. You keep trying to use this as a "gotcha" moment but it's not. I also did not say NIN didn't require any braincells anymore because of this once change, the discussion is about TCJ specifically and how it fits into the kit and fight structure.

You are talking like all the things that make NIN NIN like mudra's, hiding to reset mudras and prep work is some sort of hinderance while those are what make the class fun for people who play it, including TCJ. Fail states are one of the things that make classes interesting and makes you think more about what you need to do.

And also your last point doesn't make sense, the fact that fights are made with so much movement in mind is what made TCJ so fun to think about, having a moment of immobility on a highly mobile class was fun.

[LisseyCrowe]

Pulling back from Ninja back to the original post, it just feels like there's no actual job design team (obviously there has to be one). It reminds me of that Bethesda talk where they more-or-less mention not having Writers but rather having everyone contribute in writing quests, characters, etc. So many changes are being made that seem to address first impressions rather than genuine Job issues that a veteran on the team believes is necessary.

We have new Jobs. One that wasn't an issue and got reworked instantly (in fact, many of its changes were planned before release somehow), one that is an issue and seemingly no one is willing to touch it. Black Mage getting incredibly impactful changes one after the other (that all seem to contradict it's identity). Dragoon who was supposed to get reworked didn't, but then gets butchered out of nowhere. Dancers getting resource gen when didn't need any. Reaper getting it's resource gen swapped for a free cast buff when it didn't need it. Healers getting their kit even more simplified after a vocal outcry of becoming too simplified. Machinist getting minuscule number tweaks when it suffers from being selfish but not allowed to be selfish. And that's just the things I can notice.

I can tell you who made those suggestions, I have all jobs at 100. This isn't a flex, I don't play most of them. And I can tell you that when I took Dragoon out of the closet to level it from 90 to 100, I got in my burst phase, got overwhelmed by a bunch of buttons and promptly decided to level it in MSQ Roulette instead. Since I'm but a nobody, and have other jobs to play, there's nothing wrong with that. But more and more (especially with Dawntrail) I get worried that people like me who happen to work at SE and are thus not "nobodies" get to have their feedback listened to. And I don't mean in a "they're requesting them" way but rather that SE is having some of their writers, graphic designers, programmers, etc try out jobs, give first impressions, and then those impressions are taken at the same value as "Veteran job designer" feedback.

I just wish I felt like whoever was managing the jobs I love loves them too. I wish I got the impression that whoever was managing the jobs I love was looking out for me. But instead it feels like whoever "that" is is more preoccupied with why my neighbour prefers a different job, and what he can do to win him over. Jobs are being treated like they're some kind of diversity quota that needs equal representation. Other times it's more bothered by pleasing some elite 1% who cares more about math than the job itself. Either way, it's clear I'm the third wheel in this whole thing, and I can't say it makes me too hopeful about the future.

[Jangles]

And I didn't say those things were a hindrance, only that it's already a long list of things to manage (now, and later when I get there) that something like old-TCJ would have been one thing too far, especially with how it ran completely opposite to how NIN normally works. Maybe *you* thought it was fun, but I would have found it loathsome to the point of either not using it, or just stopped playing NIN if I was required to use it no exceptions.

The fact that you would forego doing major damage because a move has a slight negative, which wasn't even really a "negative", and the fact that you see fail states and drawbacks as things to "tolerate" in a kit speaks mountains to what kind of gameplay you want.

but there's also ones that are so crippling to any possible fun factor that it dumpsters the whole job for me.

Standing still for literal 1.5 seconds is not "so crippling". Also if something about a job is such a big bother that it ruins it for you, there are 21 other classes for you to pick and chose from. NIN people liked NIN for what it is, and I've seen a majority of NIN players, those who have spoken out of course, dislike the change to TCJ. Changing a class to cater to people that don't actually like it makes absolutely no sense.