Please reconsider an upcoming Black Mage change.

[GartredZW]

So if anyone here actually cares about the core caster experience, everyone needs to be shouting from the rooftops to both make casters less mobile as a whole and make encounters actually fair for people who are designed to not move every single mechanic.

That's the thing. we did just fine before with how the kit was. I raided back in Endwalker, and I'm currently progging the Eden Raids synced on Black Mage. Movement wasn't nearly as big of an issue as it seems if you just take a moment to learn what you're capable of, and give it a couple tries. It does take a bit more to master than a phys ranged, I'm not denying that. What matters is that you've got what it takes to clear the fight without being a burden to the party damage wise. We're given so many tools to enhance movement that some people even say that Black Mage is more mobile than Red Mage (Which might be true in situations with long sustained movement, but not most of the time.) Hell, even now I barely feel like I'm pushed to the brink of my mobility kit. Valigarmanda was the only fight where it felt like I actually needed the extra movement from instant Paradox and Firestarter. Most of the time in Light-Heavy-Weight, I'll sit at two charges of Triplecast and not even notice because of how little movement we need to do in those fights. I still need to spend a ton of Xenoglossies to avoid overcapping rather than movement.

That said the class still needs a general reworking to drop the skill floor of it so it's easier to understand how to play to newer players and is more forgiving while also pruning bad, low use, and redundant buttons. And, of course, a leveling experience overhaul.

I'll agree that the leveling experience needs a bit of a look-over, but I don't really get what's so hard to understand about Black Mage for new players. As long as you're not trying for 100% uptime on every fight your first time through (and if we're talking about new players, they're not.) It's actually a very easy job to play. You don't even need to think about that Enochian timer until you get FireIV at level 60. Before then, you have all that time to learn and master your GCD timings, How and when to swap to Ice phase, and back to Fire, how to keep Thunder up at all times, and maybe even how to weave if you're really good.

I'm just speaking from my experience though. My first 50 levels were as a Black Mage, and it's always been a step or two behind Scholar until I got to level 90. Personally, I think the real solution is to make an in-game way to learn how each class works in their fundamental rotation. Something like Hall of the Novice, but for each class. It shouldn't try to teach optimized openers or anything, that's up to the community to figure out. But stuff like "Use Despair when you've got 2399 or less MP because it hits harder than a FireIV, but takes up all of your MP as long as you have at least 800 to spare." or "Use Blizzard 3 to swap from Fire to Ice because with that one spell you'll go straight to Umbral Ice level 3. Same with Fire 3 from Ice to Fire, using it will instantly put you at Astral Fire 3 for no MP cost if used under Umbral Ice."

Teach people how to play better rather than making the game easier to compensate for people who don't know how to play. Remember that if a player wants to improve, nothing can stop them. If a player doesn't want to improve, nothing will help them.

[Taranok]

That's the thing...

The problem is more that movement is so important, they have to kill BLM's core identity to make movement possible. Between that and the timers, they're basically bending over backwards destroying BLM's core identity in the process trying to fix the class. Despair being instant is 100% because people are dropping timers in the fight. They want timer resets to be instant so that you never are edging the timers trying to get a 3s cast off in a 3.5s maybe window. And the class needs more mobility as per their own internal metrics. These are the only reasons why they'd change despair to instant.

Hell, I cleared DSR in BLM before it got buffed. I know how to use the tools, and I was, strictly, an average BLM of all BLMs who cleared that fight. There's dozens of us, DOZENS! (No, seriously, I don't think it ever broke 100 or 150 in any 2 week period and was overwhelmingly the least played class.)

Speaking of, Endwalker BLM was among the least played classes through all of EW. To even pretend BLM was fine in endwalker is basically intentionally blinding yourself to the problems the class had. Essentially being so addicted to something about its core gameplay that you overlook its glaring flaws. My favorite? They allowed hypermeme accidentally because timers were turned from a neat buff that helped define the boom and bust nature in what is functionally a proc mage into a load-bearing wall. The class was never intended to be a highly flexible mage but aligned to a stringent 2m burst cycle, so it's no surprise that any attempts to fix that also broke it further.

Also, just to iterate this point: The problem isn't BLM mobility, because the class is stupidly mobile now with an estimated ~11.5 instant casts per minute, with a standard minute being 24 standard GCDs. The problem is that BLM's core design is direct anathema to modern encounter design, necessitating making the class stupidly mobile.

I wouldn't be surprised if fire 4s become a 1.5 or 2s GCD on a 2.8s recast, alongside flare star getting similar treatment, because it doesn't matter whether you can or cannot handle the flamethrowers in M4S transition, or even that you can slidecast it. The problem is that feels like absolute crap to do because the core of BLM was never running around like a MCH with some restrictions, and forcing it into that playstyle is always going to kill every single caster.

Hell, SMN's rework in EW mostly killed the class because it was turned into an rphys with some cast bars. Its tactile feel is surprisingly similar to what it was in ShB, outside of things like FBT losing the rocker rotation to instead be a 1-button wonder. The class often devolved into a 1-button spam with 4 distinct 'phases.' DWT+DB, FBT setup, FBT+DP, DWT setup.

I'll agree that the leveling experience...

This is a nonsense argument because every class can be reduced to "It's easy if you ignore X!" 100% of BLM's difficulty in the past was finding a way to get 100% uptime on fights that would occasionally tell you to not stand still, but you had enough movement to handle it. 100% of BLM's problems in EW and DT are caused by a combination of "We messed up the design and players are exploiting the flaws," with "We now want casters to play like they have unlimited movement, and have destroyed core caster gameplay to do this."

Having a class that also has a bait and switch is always a serious issue. As you even said, "You don't even need to think about that Enochian timer until you get FireIV at level 60." is a pretty big design flaw of the class and its leveling experience.

Personally, I think the real solution is to make an in-game way to learn how each class works in their fundamental rotation. Something like Hall of the Novice, but for each class.

Teach people how to play better rather than making the game easier to compensate for people who don't know how to play. Remember that if a player wants to improve, nothing can stop them. If a player doesn't want to improve, nothing will help them.

I agree that the game should do a better job teaching players how the class is expected to be play. Not the burst, not optimized openers, but its core rotation. Things like teaching a SAM how to generate stickers and how to spend that. 11/10, fully agree.

Where I draw the line is when the class has such a steep learning curve and a punishment cycle that it starts dragging the class down. Timers are this. The player isn't taught how to do the fire 4 rotation, the timers basically force you to do other things and you fill the space with fire 4s otherwise. Interestingly, the game does tell you this, but at level 100 when you get flare star. The game is weird like this, especially with BLM.

Ironically, there's a lot of things that push the intended rotation, especially in DT. For example, Paradox is more DPS than fire 4. Fire 3 is DPS neutral with fire 4 (at AF3.) You need exactly 6 fire 4s to cast flare star. Despair consumes all mana and is more DPS than fire 4. Blizzard 4 gives you umbral hearts and full mana. Thunder 3 does more damage than fire 4 (but has a DoT component you don't want to clip.)

DT BLM could remove timers and everyone would do the exact same (general) rotation because flare star, paradox, and every other component pushes the intended rotation.

Which actually represents smart design, if the devs could enforce it below level 100 and removed the timers. Since all the mechanics of the class build into each other. Hell, even something as basic as: "Casting more fire 4s increases the damage of despair," would encourage casting more fire 4s to then cast despair. Cap it at 6 fire 4s and boom, problem solved. Take despair, drop it to level 50 and make it aoe. Upgrade into flare at 70 or 72, upgrade flare into flare star at 100 and you have a coherent mechanic that, with a fire 4-like spell at 50 or lower enforces the desired gameplay without needing to leverage bad design to do it.

Though, if that were done, I'd also shorten the AF rotation more and build up the UI rotation, while making thunder more significant than a single dot. I digress.

[GartredZW]

-There's dozens of us, DOZENS! (No, seriously, I don't think it ever broke 100 or 150 in any 2 week period and was overwhelmingly the least played class.)

There is nothing inherently wrong with a class being less popular. When you have multiple things of differing styles some are going to be less popular than others. News at 11.
What you need to ask is what kind of niche does Black Mage fill for the people who play and enjoy it. Overwhelmingly, the consensus I've heard from Black Mage players all over was that it feels very different from all other classes. Not focused entirely on lining up fifteen different cooldowns, or rigidly adhering to the two minute meta, only leaning into it when mechanics allow.
To make it more appealing to Summoner or Red Mage players misses the entire point of having multiple jobs in the first place. It shouldn't change to appeal to people who don't like Black Mage because those people already have a class they do like. How likely would it be for someone to go "Well, I love Red Mage, and want more classes to be like Red Mage. Now Black Mage feels about 2% more like Red Mage. Time to change my main instead of just staying on the class that feels 100% like Red Mage."

I wouldn't be surprised if fire 4s become a 1.5 or 2s GCD on a 2.8s recast, alongside flare star getting similar treatment, because it doesn't matter whether you can or cannot handle the flamethrowers in M4S transition, or even that you can slidecast it. The problem is that feels like absolute crap to do because the core of BLM was never running around like a MCH with some restrictions, and forcing it into that playstyle is always going to kill every single caster.

Just go play Machinist if cast times bother you that much while playing a caster. Do you even hear yourself right now? Planning out my movement tools to get full uptime in that part of the fight was one of the most satisfying things in the expansion so far. Again I say. We're doing just fine with what movement we have. Either take the deal you signed up for, or go play something more to your taste.

This is a nonsense argument because every class can be reduced to "It's easy if you ignore X!" 100% of BLM's difficulty in the past was finding a way to get 100% uptime on fights that would occasionally tell you to not stand still

Did you just forget what I was referring to in the first place? When you're talking about new players, you can't just blame the class when they can't get it perfect immediately. I was very explicitly talking about new players who don't care about getting 100% cast uptime. Keeping the GCD rolling at all times is not the skill floor. It's something that takes skill and even careful planning to achieve. Obviously skilled players should try to have full uptime in any situation. That still doesn't make it an issue with the job that they can't always do that. This is what I signed up for when I chose Thaumaturge as my starting class.
And to fully labor the point home. Every class is easy if you ignore how to play it properly. I'm not even going to argue that point. It's demonstrably true. Load up any mandatory story content and mash buttons out of combo. You'll still clear. It'll take you longer, but you'll clear.

Past the third quote in your reply, I don't really have any issues. The poor leveling (and levelsyncing) experience was my biggest issue with the class, and the one thing I was hoping would be fixed in Dawntrail.
I just hope they can do it without just going scorched earth on the whole thing, turning it into something it never should have been just to appeal to players that never bothered to put in the effort to play it anyway.

I wonder if this line of thinking works for other classes too. "I like Bard, and I want to play the job with a bow. But the timers are just way too hard. The songs should just automatically cycle so I don't have to keep as close an eye on them. Also Iron Jaws only refreshes the DOTs that are already up when it's used. That's an issue somehow, so can you just make them apply both DOTs regardless? And maybe just have Heavy Shot turn into Straight Shot directly instead of making me pay attention to the bars."