Concerns Regarding DPS Balance: Physical Ranged, Red Mage, and Summoner

[Supersnow845]

Smudge is very good, but I don't believe it should be nerfed. I don't see that as the problematic part of PCT's kit and frankly, if PCT wasn't pulling those DPS numbers, no one would care.

Or to put it another way, imagine SMN dealing PCT levels of damage, there would be endless complaints about the job due to its ease of play as well as its almost endless mobility and (lack of) identity as a caster. The latter already happens anyway.



En Avant is kind of whatever for DNC. Mobility actions on physical range are more "panic" buttons than tools that would see continued use. Gap closers on melee and dashes/instant casts on casters exist to compensate for the uptime troubles the jobs might have, which is not something the p. range role has to care about.

I suppose that we could argue that in very specific scenarios, En Avant is required for the DNC to be in range of the target faster to be able to hit a Finish, but that situation is likely quite rare in high end. In fact, where it actually becomes useful is in dungeons in order to keep up with the tank and hit the enemies reliably with the melee range AoEs. This is probably why the ability exists in the first place.

Still a comparison between en avant and smudge is basically as useful as a comparison between aetherial shift and smudge because the only consideration the two share is caster despite their movement capacity being massively different.

My only point was cross comparison of different role gap closers is a pretty pointless endeavour because you are going to end up narrowing it down to WAR functionally having the strongest overall gap closer even though that statement alone means functionally nothing. It’s hard to argue that smudge is even the strongest overall caster gap closer but still is that comparison really valid anyway

[Lyth]

The main issue with Smudge is that they didn't consider the length of the cooldown relative to the duration of the sprint effect. That's 5 seconds of sprint every 20 seconds.

Comparing Smudge and AM isn't an example of partial homogenization because you can't really compare the two effects. It says something about the design of BLM and PCT, sure, in that BLM favors planning and PCT enables freestyle, reactive play. But you can't definitively 'prove' that one is mathematically better than the other under all conditions.

Aetherial Shift and Smudge is definitely an example of partial homogenization. You can try to justify it on the basis that the Caster role is 'meant to be' superior to Healers if you like, but it just comes down to the fact that you have two actions that are functionally similar, except that one is just mathematically better than the other. Now if you reverse the recasts, then it no longer becomes simple to compare. Then you have a dash and sprint on 60 seconds vs. a dash on 20 seconds.

The point of this example is to illustrate that the real problem in action design is partial homogenization. If you get the DPS balance right, you can have all sorts of interesting trade-offs on non-DPS support actions that make the jobs feel unique, without having to compromise on balance and fairness. I don't accept the claim that a level playing field with unique skill expression is impossible. I think it's very doable.

[fulminating]

White mage getting a dash is the mistake, not smudge. Pct is always building the mobility tool HiW during fillertime and has clearly been designed as pretty mobile whereas white mage has been a primarily hardcasting turret for long enough. It’s not like the other dt job wasn’t insanely generous with movement tools - up to 3 stacks of coiled furry is more than most melee get, especially monk which broadly seems to the cooler viper in terms of job identity. Let them have 5 patches in the sun before the 110 skill drops a brick in their rotation.

The available support actions are very limited with cc being nigh useless (rip phys ranged), party heals being something the healer can cover or be replaced by along with heal up (nature’s minne is mantra as of 7.0) and hp up. Movement is more varied but still mostly in the same few niches (player relative, to mark, to target). There’s no aggro nor tp nor mp distribution skills anymore. There are some damage increase ones or crit/dh, but no speed. I don’t think there’s ever been a swiftcast or positional modifier for another player. Very few dials to play with there when it gets down to it. Mostly people are just looking for things that make their number go up and if it catches the party so be it. You can barely get your ankles wet with depth like this. Does it have to be like this? No. Is it likely to change? Also no.

Job balance is and must be secondary to fun.

[Lyth]

Job balance is and must be secondary to fun.

Except, of course, when someone else's 'fun' comes at the expense of your 'fun'. Then job balance suddenly becomes very important again.

Nerf a job like WAR or PCT back into balance and you'll see for yourselves how just much tolerance there is for the status quo when the scales have shifted. Change only happens when people speak out.

[fulminating]

Nah it really doesn’t matter, because everything is trying to fit into the “burst dps that also does some stuff on the side” slot. War’s already the weakest tank in terms of damage as well you know. And damage is all that currently and will ever matter until the servers go offline. People would be upset if pct was changed significantly given how poorly the 7.0 blm additions have been implemented and received - ie black mage not being fun anymore, and being chased down in the next job they went to.

Nothing ever changes for the better; every request made here is transmitted via monkey’s paw.

[Eraden]

Mao gonna say one more thing about jobs. If Devs waitings until 8.0 to fix jobs then Devs doing this all WRONG. Job design should be constant part of playtestings and should be worked on ALL THE TIME. If has to wait for future expansion to roll out changes then Devs taking BIG risk of seeing game crash and burn before "The Promised Day" comes. Is some peoples like Mao whats just not has time to waste while waitings for 8.0. Mao kinda worried that is might be little or no serious playtestings goings on. If Mao right about this then Mao also worried that this might mean SE nots has enough staffs assigned to FFXIV to be able do this work.

[Valence]

Agreed but on the other hand, I find it even more worrying that it's probably more about them being unable to get out of their comfort zone and their overly rigid schedules more than anything.

[Eraden]

Agreed but on the other hand, I find it even more worrying that it's probably more about them being unable to get out of their comfort zone and their overly rigid schedules more than anything.

Mao little bits worried about that too. Devs and SE itself need to wakes up and look around. Is lots gaming companies in troubles right now because thems playing too safe and puttings out lackluster products. Gamers lot less willing to tolerates this now. NO company is safe. Not even SE.

[BabyYoda]

Mao gonna say one more thing about jobs. If Devs waitings until 8.0 to fix jobs then Devs doing this all WRONG. Job design should be constant part of playtestings and should be worked on ALL THE TIME. If has to wait for future expansion to roll out changes then Devs taking BIG risk of seeing game crash and burn before "The Promised Day" comes. Is some peoples like Mao whats just not has time to waste while waitings for 8.0. Mao kinda worried that is might be little or no serious playtestings goings on. If Mao right about this then Mao also worried that this might mean SE nots has enough staffs assigned to FFXIV to be able do this work.

Exactly,

Games with professional delivery will at least show us the roadmap of what we should expect for 8.0, all we got is 1 interview and it is just like yeah we are fixing things wait 2 more years.

[BabyYoda]

Agreed but on the other hand, I find it even more worrying that it's probably more about them being unable to get out of their comfort zone and their overly rigid schedules more than anything.

I think there is no R&D team in FFXIV at least no R&D person.

I remember Riot games did 1 year of R&D for a game then cancels it just to make sure they are releasing a good game that worth people money and time.