Concerns Regarding DPS Balance: Physical Ranged, Red Mage, and Summoner

[Carighan]

DPS parity should be the starting point. This has nothing to do with homogenization, gameplay, or lore, because all those can be unique without changing that number. It's just a fundamental point that lets everyone compete on a level playing field. I acknowledge that there will be limitations around this. If tanks or healers had DPS parity with DPS, you would run an all support party. If ranged had DPS parity with melee, you would run an all ranged party. That's why fights are designed on a 2/2/2/2 principle. But if you balance well, then ranged will sometimes be better than melee, and melee will sometimes be better than ranged. Burst will sometimes be better than sustained DPS, and sustained DPS will sometimes be better than burst. That's what I mean by parity.

As you state yourself here, true DPS parity is impossible.

You can have "equal opportunities", basically. You can have fights where bringing maximum melee DPS is optimal, because uptime is high and melees are designed to output more at full uptime. You'd balance this with a fight - ideally in the same tier - where melees have to constantly disengage, so ideally you'd bring 0 melee.

That's how most old MMORPGs did their balance, btw. Importantly this is the same balance by which you balance a support-centric-but-lower-output job in the same role as a no-support-but-pure-DPS job: Some fights ask for extra support from DPS, and hence the former is optimal there. Others do not, and naturally the latter is optimal. The underlying balance is the same.

Namely: Individual moments aren't balance, but expansions and all opportunities and fights in them balance out "overall".

This is the opposite of "proper" parity, where fight design is not inhibited to account for all the differences in job design as jobs have been balanced to be equal down to the moment-to-moment gameplay, and hence fights can be designed ~whatever they want to be, DPS will be equal anyways. This is where FFXIV is headed, and is mostly there if we discount the two new jobs, because all underlying combat design has been equalized and most unique aspects have been eroded. We currently only have two "camps" of DPS, one sits lower and I suspect if the devs were to balance the numbers a few more times they want the support-centric jobs like Dancer, Bard and Red Mage in that lower camp, and the DPS-centric jobs like Samurai, Viper and Black Mage in the higher one.

But it just comes down to letting everyone have their moment to shine.

You mean, like having those moments where Red Mages get to save the day by spam-rezzing 3-4 people?

[Lyth]

It depends on what you define as 'true' DPS parity. This game ultimately uses a 2/2/2/2 role system in its fight design, so individual elements are not truly interchangeable for balance reasons. The problem is that Ranged is currently split into three different subcategories, each of which gets different treatment. We currently have the role split into Damage Casters, Raise Casters, and Physical Ranged, each of which have 2-3 jobs each. The latter two are at a DPS disadvantage compared to the Damage Casters, on the basis that the other jobs bring Raise or a 1% damage buff. This was less of an issue when BLM was just an outlier in the Damage Caster category, but with the advent of PCT dominating the charts you have players asking what the point of these other sub-subroles are.

I think that it's fine to have variety in support actions that jobs bring to the table, but you can't really ascribe a 'DPS equivalence' to them. Raise on RDM is a lot of fun, especially if you're doing content without enrages. It's fantastic in CLL/Dalriada, as well as 24p content. In raid content, less so. You're bottoming out on MP to get those chain Raises off, and the resulting DPS loss from the deaths and downtime probably will cost you the enrage, if there isn't a body check that gets you first. MCH has some fantastic kiting options and interrupts in Deep Dungeon content. But can you assign a DPS value to that in raid content? That's why DPS really needs to be balanced independently of support functionality.

Once you establish that level playing field, you're free to come up with whatever support concepts that you like. I think this is an underdeveloped area in the game, especially when you consider that the most creative concept that we've seen in a while is Expedient.

[Aco505]

on the basis that the other jobs bring Raise or a 1% damage buff.

The developers balance the physical range to deal less damage because of their continuous and consistent uptime. They said so themselves by declaring that doing damage at close distances is harder in previous patch notes commentary on job tuning.

The 1% is a thing all roles have. It's players who comment that the p. range are a glorified 1% buff but that's not why they're balanced as such.

The problem is that the damage gap is too large and SE is painfully slow at balancing. They will only do job tuning on major patches and some minor patches, such as those in which they release content like Savage or Ultimate. Thus, the amount of times where they will balance jobs is quite limited per expansion. This is why MCH and other jobs were only remotely "balanced" near the end of EW after trailing behind for a while.

[AmiableApkallu]

I think that it's fine to have variety in support actions that jobs bring to the table, but you can't really ascribe a 'DPS equivalence' to them. Raise on RDM is a lot of fun, especially if you're doing content without enrages. It's fantastic in CLL/Dalriada, as well as 24p content. In raid content, less so. You're bottoming out on MP to get those chain Raises off, and the resulting DPS loss from the deaths and downtime probably will cost you the enrage, if there isn't a body check that gets you first. MCH has some fantastic kiting options and interrupts in Deep Dungeon content. But can you assign a DPS value to that in raid content?

Absolutely.

In a game where the win condition is, generally, "Drop the {target}'s HP to zero," the (default) reason to push a button A over button B is because you believe it will make it more likely than not that you'll achieve that goal. If you believe that there's no meaningful difference there, then you choose based on which button you believe will achieve that outcome more quickly.

Thus, all you have to do is compare the DPS in the possible futures arising from pushing Ye Olde Support button versus the possible futures arising from not pushing it. The difference between those two sets of futures is the DPS value of the button.

[Valence]

The rphys role is a glorified de facto 1% buff by result of that design, whether the intention is there or not. There is no subjectivity to be had about it. There is no reason to bring a rphys without that 1% bonus and has never been since ShB knocked at the door. Reducing the gap will not magically make rphys suddenly worth bringing without that bonus. Stating otherwise is absolutely disingenuous.

If the job had raising capabilities, then it would be a totally different story.

[BabyYoda]

Having no standards will always be a flop,

1% wont make the job interesting.

[Aco505]

Right now, you'd bring BRD because it's the best ranged DPS after PCT and you need two. BRD is also quite close to RPR and VPR in cDPS at higher percentiles, highlighting its potential.

The developers are going to have to think long and hard about the p. range role for 8.0. If they're going to be buffers, then they should be the best at them. That should be their role. If they're going to be something else, then they should clarify it.

But closing the gap would certainly reduce a lot of the woes in the short-term. These problems would be way less egregious if the gap was not of 10% or more on average.

[mallleable]

*cough* *cough* Walking casts *cough*

Seriously, the cast times alone would be considerations for increasing potency for physical ranged jobs -- the lightly movement restricted movement would be an extra little consideration. We could do something like replace MCH's Clean Shot combo with Blast Charge spam, and be generous with the potency and make it like 400 potency per hit with a 1.5 second cast time (PCT's 1.5 sec cast RGB GCDS are 400+ potency), same heat generation, and after every three casts you get an oGCD attack that grants 10 battery so you gain gauges at the same rate. And this has a cascading effect because now the potency for Blazing Shot has to go up as well because it is now a burst phase that requires some casting to get to, and because its potency is somewhat balanced around filler GCDs. Also 400 potency Blazing Shot spam that is still instant, and still has a 1.5 second recast time. Queen, and tool potencies would have to go up as well. These would be uhhh huge buffs. Not even mentioning that we could probably bring in the sniper rifle from PVP, give it a short cast time for HUGE damage under buffs (spitballing 1000p+ auto dhcrit with a 2 second cast on a 110 sec CD).

Similar principles can apply to BRD as well.

[Rika007]

*cough* *cough* Walking casts *cough*

Seriously, the cast times alone would be considerations for increasing potency for physical ranged jobs -- the lightly movement restricted movement would be an extra little consideration. We could do something like replace MCH's Clean Shot combo with Blast Charge spam, and be generous with the potency and make it like 400 potency per hit with a 1.5 second cast time (PCT's 1.5 sec cast RGB GCDS are 400+ potency), same heat generation, and after every three casts you get an oGCD attack that grants 10 battery so you gain gauges at the same rate. And this has a cascading effect because now the potency for Blazing Shot has to go up as well because it is now a burst phase that requires some casting to get to, and because its potency is somewhat balanced around filler GCDs. Also 400 potency Blazing Shot spam that is still instant, and still has a 1.5 second recast time. Queen, and tool potencies would have to go up as well. These would be uhhh huge buffs. Not even mentioning that we could probably bring in the sniper rifle from PVP, give it a short cast time for HUGE damage under buffs (spitballing 1000p+ auto dhcrit with a 2 second cast on a 110 sec CD).

Similar principles can apply to BRD as well.

Why would we want to add walking casts and lightly restrict the movement of two jobs that are already the most immobile jobs in the game? Bard and Machinist are right next to Scholar and AST are the only jobs in the game that lack a gap closer or dash to an ally ability. Bard has Repelling shot which most bard players don't even use or have on their bar because no endgame content necessitates it (and half the time your worried it will get you killed) and Scholar has Expedience (another kick between the legs to ranged players that they gave a healer a combat movement buff when ranged has been asking for Peloton to do that in combat forever).

Black Mage is unironically a more mobile job then both Bard and Machinist ever could be, because true mobility is not just being able to walk all over the place while you dont lose uptime, it's having the movement tools to rapidly get to where you need to be and then not move anymore after that moment. If both were given things similar to en avant or slither then sure, you could say they are mobile jobs, but restricting them at this point is like saying I want to put weights on this turtle cause it's moving to fast.

Also walking casts would totally screw up the high APM of both jobs, as you can't double weave with walking casts, and double weaving is central to the feeling of both jobs.

[Valence]

Right now, you'd bring BRD because it's the best ranged DPS after PCT and you need two. BRD is also quite close to RPR and VPR in cDPS at higher percentiles, highlighting its potential.

The developers are going to have to think long and hard about the p. range role for 8.0. If they're going to be buffers, then they should be the best at them. That should be their role. If they're going to be something else, then they should clarify it.

But closing the gap would certainly reduce a lot of the woes in the short-term. These problems would be way less egregious if the gap was not of 10% or more on average.

Alright, BRD is currently extremely peculiar and definitely not representative of anything when it comes to Rphys. I just rechecked because your reply surprised me and it was definitely not up there earlier in the tier a month ago. It was higher than its counterparts, but definitely way below BLM. Its current position is extremely uncommon and has never happened since shb. I am happy to see it though, but seeing how SE balances rphys, I am inclined to read this as an anomaly right now.

However, if they do take it as a base for the two others for the next buffs to come, then you can colour me surprised. I'm not on copium though.

The reason those problems are egregious is only because they're skirting or outright going over the tipping point where the 1% party bonus is not enough as a guardrail anymore. It has happened in both ShB (BRD) and EW (MCH) already at release. This is only repeating history. When the situation got buffed over time in both expansions the gap was reduced closer to 5%, which is what some people here have been asking. Well, sure, it means that the balance isn't stricto sensu broken with gaps dangerously spilling over the 1% safety net, but it still means that the role is only taken because of that same 1%. It's been a shit sandwich for 6 years now, 5, 10% or 15% gap no matter at how you look at it. Whether the gap is high or lower, to the eye of a rphys player, at least to me, doesn't change the slightest thing on our side. 5% just makes it "look functional", but what an excuse.

Why would we want to add walking casts and lightly restrict the movement of two jobs that are already the most immobile jobs in the game? Bard and Machinist are right next to Scholar and AST are the only jobs in the game that lack a gap closer or dash to an ally ability. Bard has Repelling shot which most bard players don't even use or have on their bar because no endgame content necessitates it (and half the time your worried it will get you killed) and Scholar has Expedience (another kick between the legs to ranged players that they gave a healer a combat movement buff when ranged has been asking for Peloton to do that in combat forever).

Black Mage is unironically a more mobile job then both Bard and Machinist ever could be, because true mobility is not just being able to walk all over the place while you dont lose uptime, it's having the movement tools to rapidly get to where you need to be and then not move anymore after that moment. If both were given things similar to en avant or slither then sure, you could say they are mobile jobs, but restricting them at this point is like saying I want to put weights on this turtle cause it's moving to fast.

Also walking casts would totally screw up the high APM of both jobs, as you can't double weave with walking casts, and double weaving is central to the feeling of both jobs.

I don't feel I have the courage to get back into the argument on walking casts (which are essentially cast times in constraints in the current DDR pve environment), and I do agree with you that this would make both jobs the worst turrets in the game without any new dash or movement ability. And if they get those, well, welcome to our new flavor of casters.

Detractors of rphys always conveniently forget that mobility =/= uptime freedom.

On repelling shot: this ability is absolutely useless unless you feel like weaving fancy flips because the job bores you, for multiple reasons:
1) Unlike elusive jump, aiming with that crap requires a target and be at the correct position by following abstract geometry linked to the center of the target. While the positioning constraint isn't uninteresting, combined with the rest this makes the skill just unusable and taste like a shit sandwich. And to be frank doing a simple back step requiring a target is a weird constraint. It only makes sense in pvp because you're actually binding the target.
2) The ability is one of the most unresponsive in the game, almost on the level of sprint as if it didn't queue much at all. And the animation delay moving you back is absolutely awful.
3) Unlike elusive jump, this ability backflips you to such a pitiful range behind that you actually go as fast or even faster by just running back, because in relation to the point above, it takes so much time to actually move you that yes, running is probably as fast or even faster.
4) Ironically this ability could see a bit more use if the job was an actual caster, for repositioning, but 2 and 3 would still need be fixed for it to be worthwhile. Way too niche.