Response to Yoshi P: you can fix it.. but

[Raven2014]

Seriously, it is very hard to predict, whether the players will like a story or not. In DT, they tried something new and they failed.

Not really?

Quality of the MSQ has always been consistently good in FF14. Even SB was only bad because it's considered to be worse in relative to other expansion, rather than because it was objectively bad. So if your players have been consistently praising you for one thing, I don't think the "it's hard to predict" argument really fly here. The problem stem from a quality of the staffs problems, not because they're trying something news:

- They moved their top writer Ishakawa to other project, and handed the writing to a team that's much less talent.

- They moved Koji-Fox, who has been handling the English localization with a spotless record for 10 years and handed the task to someone who are far less competent and professional ... and it shows.

- Instead of keep hiring top talent - theatrical trained professional British VA, they opt for cheaper and much less professional American VAs ... and it shows.

- In EW, instead of giving us a full zone for relic, we got a a simple "just grind for tome" in the last relic.



And of course, the "copo" reason for all of these are: oh we're just trying something new, oh we're doing this to improve presentation, oh we thought players didn't like long and complex grind for relic so we made it easier. But do you see one common thread among all of these "we did it in the best interest of players"? Conveniently, each and every of those actions will result in saving them money and lower cost? So yeah, I don't buy it. This is like believing youtube's new "pause experience" is genuinely an attempt to improve user's experience, and not "we're just trying to jam as much ads down your throat as we can because it makes us more money".

So no, this is simply just them trying to cut cost and hope you will see it as them trying something new.

[Eyrilona]

- They moved Koji-Fox, who has been handling the English localization with a spotless record for 10 years and handed the task to someone who are far less competent and professional ... and it shows.

Um.. Koji-Fox's record is actually quite spotted and not without scandals being caught out in weird stuff.

Recently a bilingual (JP/EN) content creator has even started calling him out as actually quite detrimental to the international versions of the game, because of his insistence on rewriting things 'his way' in ways that will then produce massive plot holes in future patches (because the JP devs base how they will proceed on the JP version of the game, not the 'creative localization').

Under Koji's guidance, the localization team has simply omitted major plot points that exist in the JP version from the EN version, completely changed the personalities of major characters (seriously, people like Urianger and Alphinaud, Gaius and Haurchefant), confused things that were supposed to be obvious in the JP script, inserted sexual innuendo in a lot of jokes where they weren't in the JP, changed character motivations (e.g. did you know Gaius never meant to conquer Eorzea? His lines at the start of the Praetorium make SO much more sense in JP, while in English he seems to be seeking you to side with him in.. conquering your own home?), and so many more liberties that ended up creating plotholes and things that look like retcons to EN players a few expansions down the line.

Koji is also rather too fond of his own mythos and gets away with overselling his influence on the game because he can tell the EN player base his side of the story in interviews that don't get fact checked by the JP team.

[Raven2014]

snip

Ok, proof for any of these claim please?

I tried to google one of your claim (about Praetorium ) and the first result is from ~5months ago by someone on reddit who tried to challenge the English translation while openly admit they use "google translate" and then re-write it into proper sentence. Needless to say they got immediately called out for their audacity.

I've been studying Japanese for about 3 years now and while I'm not any where near proficient, I know enough to discern when the Japanese VA don't match the sub. It's the reason why I decided to swear off a lot of tittle from Nintedo the last couple years until I can fully play them in Japanese after too many "there is no freaking way that's what they said" moments with their games. And I honestly don't see what you're claiming.

- I know Y'shtola has the most radical change. In JP she's more a stoic sage, whether in the English version she's more a sassy witch.

- I'm pretty sure the JP community actually think the English Shakespearean Urianger is a better portrayal of his character than the JP version is.

- Your claim about Haurchefant and sexual innuendo ... seriously are you sure you're not getting your accusation backward here? The JP Haurchefant was a total flirt and that's exactly why he got tone down in the English version. This one is hilarious to me because - full disclosure - a lot of my practical experience with Japanese came from reading eroge so his JP line was very familiar to me.

- I have NEVER heard anyone who interpret Gauis's speak the same way you just did, in English or JP. He believes in strength, and those who endowed bear the responsibility of bringing order to the world, kind of like a noble oblige. It's because he recognize the WoL's strength that he wants us to join him, that's a way for him to show respect.

- I know Koji is quite liberal with his insertion of meme, especially in naming of quest.

Again, I'm not exactly fluent so I can be wrong or miss something, I'm just saying if you have proof for any of your claim, that would be nice to see.

To be clear, I'm not a purist who would rail again "localization" simply because it's "difference". I'm fully aware of the difference between translation and localization. As a born and raised Asian but living in the US, it's not rare for me to not be able to translate one from another even though I would consider I'm naturally fluent in both language. The reason why I'm pointing out this is for the most part, his localization are well received because the change he made are often in good taste. Also, he ALWAYS had solid direction, evidence by the strong VA performance we consistently see in the last 10 years. The same can not be said for DT, like ... not even close.

[AnimaAnimus]

- Your claim about Haurchefant and sexual innuendo ... seriously are you sure you're not getting your accusation backward here? The JP Haurchefant was a total flirt and that's exactly why he got tone down in the English version. This one is hilarious to me because - full disclosure - a lot of my practical experience with Japanese came from reading eroge so his JP line was very familiar to me.

The thing with Haurchefant and the innuendo was that Koji removed it due to something about him feeling that since there was the possibility of it being gay if your character was also male and him not thinking that would not sit well with NA audiences which would cause backlash. He didn't add it, he subtracted it, and his reasons came off as, and frankly were, very homophobic. He was even scolded by Yoshida for it publically. I don't remember the details, but it was a big thing back then. To me it came off as the same sort of unintentional homophobia all my straight friends are guilty of, and were not aware of it being homophobic until it was pointed out. So I will give him a pass since it was just a singular incident in a game they were being extra careful in. He has gotten criticism over changing major story beats that do drastically change things, but that was addressed as well and while the excuses made sense, they also didn't. It was something about social and cultural differences, which didn't make sense with the changes since there was nothing that could be considered offensive or polarizing. It was reductive, however, with key plot points being lost. I know in ShB, esp toward the end, there were a lot of changes, but idk if he was still the lead back then or if Kate already had her fingers in it. That being said, Kate needs to go, she doesn't have a job, she has an agenda and its getting tiresome. I would love Koji back, even with his slip ups.

[PercibelTheren]

The thing with Haurchefant and the innuendo was that Koji removed it due to something about him feeling that since there was the possibility of it being gay if your character was also male and him not thinking that would not sit well with NA audiences which would cause backlash. He didn't add it, he subtracted it, and his reasons came off as, and frankly were, very homophobic. He was even scolded by Yoshida for it publically. I don't remember the details, but it was a big thing back then. To me it came off as the same sort of unintentional homophobia all my straight friends are guilty of, and were not aware of it being homophobic until it was pointed out.

I guess this comes down to people's experience. I've seen JP Haurchefant and I think he would have made me pretty uncomfortable. Not because I'm homophobic (at least I like to think I'm not, being a queer woman) but because he would have felt like he's coming on WAYYYYY too strong. I like the headcanon that JP is what he things, EN is what he actually says. I thought ARR Thancred was really pushing too hard onto the drunken lecher trope, too.

[Eyrilona]

Ok, proof for any of these claim please?

Look for the (long!) MSQ playthrough from bilingual streamer and translation critic DoublePerfectKO on YouTube. You will have to have a lot of patience though, he doesn't make summaries and his streams average 4-7 hours a piece..

Good introduction is in his introductory video: "Everything You Know About FFXIV is Wrong: A Realm Rewritten"

[Raven2014]

Look for the (long!) MSQ playthrough from bilingual streamer and translation critic DoublePerfectKO on YouTube. You will have to have a lot of patience though, he doesn't make summaries and his streams average 4-7 hours a piece..

Good introduction is in his introductory video: "Everything You Know About FFXIV is Wrong: A Realm Rewritten"

Why would I need to go watch some streamer on youtube? In case you missed it I already said I can translate those things myself since I'm learning Japanese, I even outlined the change I that I verified myself in my reply to you.

What I am asking for proof is your "claim" about the reaction the JP dev have about his "way".

I'll be blunt, I don't know who this youtuber is, but if your post is a reflection of the content than ... let's say I already know what the video gonna be like. I watch enough content creators to know that 90% of them often attached some outrageous claim or hot-take to help drive-engagement, often making a half-lie or conjecture based on a granular of truth. If your interpretation of Gaius is an echo of this youtuber ... I'm not sure I would place much value in their interpretation in general. I watch them purely for entertainment, I don't treat them as influencer. Now it's fine when people just state their opinion, but whenever someone make something that sound more like a allegation or accusation I often ask for proof. It's the same reason why I asked the other poster to show proof for their claim that the Harchenfault's change was due to sexuality or that Yoshi published chew Koji's out for it.

Like I said, I'm capable of understanding Japanese so I can verify thing myself. Also most of the change due to localization have been well documented for years in the community. So it's weird to hear about new angles and allegations that suddenly pop out of nowhere ... which again in my experience ... usually the result of someone found their new favorite streamer/youtuber/influencer. So unless there is an official statement or proof provide, I tend to trust my BS meter when it goes off and treat these kind of things as hearsay. But I also have a morbid curiousity, so I'm very interested in (real) proofs, and it's there I won't deny it.

[Eyrilona]

Why would I need to go watch some streamer on youtube? In case you missed it I already said I can translate those things myself since I'm learning Japanese, I even outlined the change I that I verified myself in my reply to you.

What I am asking for proof is your "claim" about the reaction the JP dev have about his "way".

I'll be blunt, I don't know who this youtuber is, but if your post is a reflection of the content than ... let's say I already know what the video gonna be like. I watch enough content creators to know that 90% of them often attached some outrageous claim or hot-take to help drive-engagement, often making a half-lie or conjecture based on a granular of truth. If your interpretation of Gaius is an echo of this youtuber ... I'm not sure I would place much value in their interpretation in general. I watch them purely for entertainment, I don't treat them as influencer. Now it's fine when people just state their opinion, but whenever someone make something that sound more like a allegation or accusation I often ask for proof. It's the same reason why I asked the other poster to show proof for their claim that the Harchenfault's change was due to sexuality or that Yoshi published chew Koji's out for it.

Like I said, I'm capable of understanding Japanese so I can verify thing myself. Also most of the change due to localization have been well documented for years in the community. So it's weird to hear about new angles and allegations that suddenly pop out of nowhere ... which again in my experience ... usually the result of someone found their new favorite streamer/youtuber/influencer. So unless there is an official statement or proof provide, I tend to trust my BS meter when it goes off and treat these kind of things as hearsay. But I also have a morbid curiousity, so I'm very interested in (real) proofs, and it's there I won't deny it.

...I referred you to that particular stream because he starts by answering, with published sources (interviews, and a formal apology that the company had to make due to a controversy in Korea that went back to Koji's work), at length in the first hour of his first stream that very question you asked me. Do you want me to write in my own words a very long explanation that someone else has already recorded? You demand answers from me, but refuse to actually engage with media containing those answers? And now you are denigrating a content creator you have never even watched, because you have decided to disagree with me and therefore any source I refer you to must be some kind of bad?

[Raven2014]

...I referred you to that particular stream because he starts by answering, with published sources (interviews, and a formal apology that the company had to make due to a controversy in Korea that went back to Koji's work), at length in the first hour of his first stream that very question you asked me. Do you want me to write in my own words a very long explanation that someone else has already recorded? You demand answers from me, but refuse to actually engage with media containing those answers? And now you are denigrating a content creator you have never even watched, because you have decided to disagree with me and therefore any source I refer you to must be some kind of bad?

Alright, so I just went ahead and watch the first 45min of that video you recommend. I hope that will please you and show my good will.

And seriously, it was hard to watch ... because it's exactly what I was expecting it to be.

- The information presented was nothing news, and has been well documented in the community.

- What is "new" in this video is his hyberpolic take and spin as most content creators do.

- I'm guessing this video is also the "proof" for what the other poster claimed to the reason change is "homophobic in nature" and "scold by Yoshida", which would be another example of hyperbolic interpretation unless the other poster was referring to something else.


In short, after watching the first segment of this video, I conclude that it does not vindicate anything you originally claimed. They had a process in place, some member of the team discussed their concern (Koji was not even the lead at the time, and the discussion were hold with 2 other teams beside English), the process is found insufficient and create inconsistency, they reviewed and promise to keep thing consistent in the future. Both your original post and the video seems to imply either there is a hidden agenda or that the localization team are some kind of ego driven personality. Again, I watched (the first 45min), I saw what presented on the screen, and my interpretation of them is not the same as yours or that of the presenter.

In hindsight, maybe I should not have made the previous post before giving the video a chance, so for that I do apologize. Even if the content of the book is exactly like the cover, it was wrong to reached a premature conclusion like I did before checking.

However, after watching it, I do stand by every thing I said in the previous post. If anything, it kinda prove why I thought I didn't need to watch it in the first place. I don't plan on watching any more of it, if you believe there are other moment beside the first 45min of that video will help move the needle, feel free to provide links with the specific timestamp and I'll happy to check it out and verify myself, but I don't plan to waste any more time on it.