My problem with FF 14

[Valence]

In contrast, FFXIV gets new players all the time and SE's aim is to make sure a new player, who has no idea what they are doing, can get through the dungeon and progress the story, since many people literally just play for the story then quit.

I don't think an unchanging formula has much to do with new player retention... Especially when even Yoshida said it was not likely to change specifically because it's a matter of chain productivity to be able to churn more in less time than anything else?

1. Holiday events used to take longer, usually due to a token system that you had to do special fates or some sort of repeatable quests to get. There was even a Moonfire Fair event where you had to craft fish and chips to turn in with actual crafting. However, people complained that it took to long, and like most times when CB3 listens, the cursed monkey paw's finger curled and we got what we got.

They were a boring, uninteresting grind. Glad they're not anymore. I'd rather have the devs put their resources elsewhere if it's just to get this.

The only good ones were the haunted manor events, and especially that one that got us into a modified spooky instance of Tam Tara with special objectives, which truly felt like a new dungeon with different gameplay on its own.

[Jeeqbit]

I don't think an unchanging formula has much to do with new player retention...

Consistency (such as same markers, etc) makes it smooth for new players to get through the MSQ. After the MSQ, many of them will break until the next patch or expansion and SE knows that. Obviously, it's always going to be a minority that want to play the game hardcore / do raids and social content and stuff like that.

The reason for 2 packs of trash always is because there used to be more, but it was deeply unsettling for everyone and still is in some ARR dungeons. You can literally pull like 10? 20? packs in Amdapor Keep! They die really fast now, but they can still potentially wipe everyone if all 4 people are not good players and well-geared and that was much worse in the past before battle system changes.

As a tank there is an anxiety of how many to pull and a pressure to pull them all because most parties want that. Yet doing so carries a huge risk. So SE started enforcing a wall every 2-3 packs and it's been smooth ever since. This makes it better for the whole party and reduces anxiety, but as a cost, it's less exciting.

Especially when even Yoshida said it was not likely to change specifically because it's a matter of chain productivity to be able to churn more in less time than anything else?

It has a lot of benefits, including for chain productivity. The consistency of 3 bosses mixed with 2 sets of 2 packs of trash before them makes it consistent and smooth and easy for them to plan ahead. It makes it consistent for players, who know what to expect and know how long a dungeon will take. It reduces anxiety of "how much should I pull" that ARR dungeons still create.

[KurenXIV]

It has a lot of benefits, including for chain productivity. The consistency of 3 bosses mixed with 2 sets of 2 packs of trash before them makes it consistent and smooth and easy for them to plan ahead. It makes it consistent for players, who know what to expect and know how long a dungeon will take. It reduces anxiety of "how much should I pull" that ARR dungeons still create.

To play devils advocate, why even bother having trash mobs then?

Part of the problem with streamlining everything and removing every little hard edge that someone could hurt themselves on is that you get a super boring end product.

If there's no threat to dying to trash and we know it'll always be two pulls before the boss then truly, what is the point?

Additionally, given that all dungeons are largely the same format now (ie: hallway with 2 pulls, boss fight, hallway with 2 pulls boss....) we should at the very least get more dungeons.

I pointed this out in another thread but we got more in a shorter period of time in earlier expansions when the game had less resources/income vs now. The influx of players, which should result in more revenue and should result in more content for the game has simply not happened.

It's one of my biggest frustration points as a long term player.

Why does the field exploration content take so long to implement (when its the only grindy aspect left for current content outside of tomes/savage drops), why do we only get one dungeon per patch (is it even one per patch now? is it every other? I forget...), why isn't there more smaller scale events put into the game so these long droughts for the main content doesn't feel so long? Why are holidays so quick and boring now when they used to have more substance?

Honestly this all comes back to them being lazy and getting comfortable with the status quo for how they do things.

They really felt like they gave a damn back when they were trying to revive the game from its death in 1.0 but now it seems they are just happy to let things continue as is, player satisfaction be damned.

Oh and lastly .. . they put a TON of effort and resources into dumbing down all the old content to make it soloable with NPCs; why not have that be the way for people scared of tanking/healing content to clear it without having to have anxiety and make full party player dungeons (and other content) more challenging?

Not saying I have all the answers but yeah the games boring and stale and the DT story didn't do that fact any favors.

[Jeeqbit]

To play devils advocate, why even bother having trash mobs then?

The trash does sometimes have interesting mechanics, SE just goes back and forth on it. For example, in Shadowbringers they added a lot of interruptable casts that, if interrupted, made it easier for the healers. This can also be the case occasionally in ARR, HW and Stormblood. For example, the mobs in Sirensong Sea, the bees in Neverreap, the petrify mobs in Haukke Manor, various Morbols, swings from Cyclops and the many casts of Chimeras. There are also a lot of proper interactions with the trash there such as placing them on stones in Qarn, dragging mobs to chains in Halitali HM or the vents in Sohm Al HM or ignoring treasure coffers that might be mimicks etc.

Part of the problem with streamlining everything and removing every little hard edge that someone could hurt themselves on is that you get a super boring end product.

I agree and SE acknowledged this mistake shortly before Dawntrail so their intention is to change that through Dawntrail. Whether that is or becomes a success I'll leave for you to judge.

If there's no threat to dying to trash and we know it'll always be two pulls

I disagree that there's "no threat". Definitely still seen people wipe to trash. Of course, it's usually fine with good players, but if you actually just queue with random players instead of 3 veteran friends, you can find yourself having a whole lot more fun precisely because of the varying skill and experience levels.

we should at the very least get more dungeons.

Well the reason we had more dungeons made before was because we didn't have many compared to WoW. We have somewhere close to (or abouts) 100 now, so SE decided we have plenty now and to focus development on other things. I don't mind the development shift, but I would like Expert roulette to have more variety - so I would like Expert and Level 100 roulette to just be merged so we aren't getting 2 dungeons for most of the expansion.

It's worth pointing out that they did start making more dungeons, called Variant and Criterion. They may not be exactly what you're wanting and maybe they need feedback to steer them in the direction you want, but they are still a form of dungeon.

I pointed this out in another thread but we got more in a shorter period of time in earlier expansions when the game had less resources/income vs now. The influx of players, which should result in more revenue and should result in more content for the game has simply not happened.

I feel like I disagree with this. Just because the content isn't what you're into doesn't mean it's less content. We didn't used to get Variant, Criterion, Ultimate, Chaos Raids, Cosmic Exploration and Shades' Triangle in ARR! We didn't actually even get the normal modes of the 8-person raids in ARR since they were just the high-end content as they were.

Why does the field exploration content take so long to implement (when its the only grindy aspect left for current content outside of tomes/savage drops)

It just does? And there's plenty of stuff to grind such as Extremes for the mount, FATEs, hunts, leveling all jobs, TT cards etc. if you're into grinds.

Honestly this all comes back to them being lazy and getting comfortable with the status quo

I don't agree with the lazy part. But comfortable with the status quo is absolutely their intention. It makes it consistent for both them and players. Wouldn't be fun if some patches were 1 month apart and others were 11 months apart at complete random like I heard WoW used to be before they bought out a company with 100 spare developers. Knowing what I'm getting months in advance makes it easy to just get a 6 month subscription.

Oh and lastly .. . they put a TON of effort and resources into dumbing down all the old content to make it soloable with NPCs; why not have that be the way for people scared of tanking/healing content to clear it without having to have anxiety and make full party player dungeons (and other content) more challenging?

I do agree that it presents an opportunity to make the version done by players more challenging. To a degree, it's more likely that they will do single pulls with Duty Support though, so it's already less challenging, but they could make other changes with players or allow players to vote on making it harder in exchange for more rewards.

[Valence]

Consistency (such as same markers, etc) makes it smooth for new players to get through the MSQ. After the MSQ, many of them will break until the next patch or expansion and SE knows that. Obviously, it's always going to be a minority that want to play the game hardcore / do raids and social content and stuff like that.

The reason for 2 packs of trash always is because there used to be more, but it was deeply unsettling for everyone and still is in some ARR dungeons. You can literally pull like 10? 20? packs in Amdapor Keep! They die really fast now, but they can still potentially wipe everyone if all 4 people are not good players and well-geared and that was much worse in the past before battle system changes.

As a tank there is an anxiety of how many to pull and a pressure to pull them all because most parties want that. Yet doing so carries a huge risk. So SE started enforcing a wall every 2-3 packs and it's been smooth ever since. This makes it better for the whole party and reduces anxiety, but as a cost, it's less exciting.
It has a lot of benefits, including for chain productivity. The consistency of 3 bosses mixed with 2 sets of 2 packs of trash before them makes it consistent and smooth and easy for them to plan ahead. It makes it consistent for players, who know what to expect and know how long a dungeon will take. It reduces anxiety of "how much should I pull" that ARR dungeons still create.

Aren't we moving the goalposts here? I never said anything about opening wall to walls or even less to make dungeons more hardcore. The point was that it's an unchanging formula and that I don't see anything hinting at that it helps player retention. If anything once players aren't new anymore, some will fall into the lot that's happy about it because it's predictable fast food duties with no player interaction, and the rest will become bored very quickly.

There is many ways to change the formula and introduce new and interesting things without making the game hardcore. CLL had prisoners spread randomly across rooms. 8 man raids used to have some trash, gate bosses or more environment to go through than just an arena with a boss. We used to have actually different endgame dungeons (a lot with frankly mediocre experimental mechanics don't get me wrong), and yet it was 3 of them per major patch in ARR vs the 1 every major patch today.

Creativity has gone quite bankrupt for the sake of predictability and I quote "reducing player stress". Everything since ShB has been about reducing player stress.

[Jeeqbit]

Aren't we moving the goalposts here? I never said anything about opening wall to walls or even less to make dungeons more hardcore.

Sorry, I assumed that because that's one of the main things most people cite when saying dungeons are the same. "It's just 2 packs always".

There is many ways to change the formula and introduce new and interesting things without making the game hardcore. CLL had prisoners spread randomly across rooms. 8 man raids used to have some trash, gate bosses or more environment to go through than just an arena with a boss.

I agree that would be nice but dungeons are also just meant to be a way to tell the story and a nice visual spectacle. They could have stuff like saving prisoners since arguably there is that in Sastasha, but it would need to be really easy for the MSQ-only players.

Creativity has gone quite bankrupt for the sake of predictability and I quote "reducing player stress". Everything since ShB has been about reducing player stress.

True. They have been trying to go back somewhat though, because in the expert dungeons you have the maze mechanic, the dolls that do lots of AoE, the boss with dolls running around like crazy and the last boss in that dungeon is really more interesting than what they normally do.

They haven't parted with the 3 bosses and trash formula, but it is a start with going backwards to the older design philosophy you could see with bosses in Heavensward, I just wonder if they will actually keep it up because all the next expert roulette dungeons will be required for MSQ.

I've often wondered when doing Praetorium why they don't do the mount riding thing more. My assumption has always been that they want players to fight themselves as their chosen job, not all do it the same in a mount, but it would still shake dungeons up a bit to have mounts with unique attacks sometimes.

[Valence]

I dont know, I find DT's areas the best we've had so far in terms of mood and flavor. But maybe that's the environment artist in me talking. Plot wise... may be a different story and we're not exactly going back in time exploring the wonderland of the Ancients, although the world building was A+ for me in this expansion, probably its biggest redeeming feature.

I actually didn't find living memory pleasing at all, it was very disagreeable visually to me.

Either way, I don't think there is a budget issue on creative resources, visual, sound, music, etc. But on the side of programming and game design, I'm really, really wondering what the hell they're doing. Viera/Hrotgar hats? Glamour slots? Job design? Encounter design? And so on.

Sorry, I assumed that because that's one of the main things most people cite when saying dungeons are the same. "It's just 2 packs always".
I agree that would be nice but dungeons are also just meant to be a way to tell the story and a nice visual spectacle. They could have stuff like saving prisoners since arguably there is that in Sastasha, but it would need to be really easy for the MSQ-only players.
True. They have been trying to go back somewhat though, because in the expert dungeons you have the maze mechanic, the dolls that do lots of AoE, the boss with dolls running around like crazy and the last boss in that dungeon is really more interesting than what they normally do.

They haven't parted with the 3 bosses and trash formula, but it is a start with going backwards to the older design philosophy you could see with bosses in Heavensward, I just wonder if they will actually keep it up because all the next expert roulette dungeons will be required for MSQ.

I've often wondered when doing Praetorium why they don't do the mount riding thing more. My assumption has always been that they want players to fight themselves as their chosen job, not all do it the same in a mount, but it would still shake dungeons up a bit to have mounts with unique attacks sometimes.

It could be one pack, two packs, or even ten, what matters is their damage output and combined level of threat. Hell it could even start with a single mob and slowly fill the room with more and more until a specific objective is achieved or you die of mob snusnu (something they almost did in Alzadhal actually...). Remember the first boss of Dusk Vigil? You used to need to get rid of the adds, it was a matter of party resources and healing past a point. Now we just bruteforce through it like all old content because we have lost most of the battle system on the way... They've started adding back some adds timidly in DT leveling dungeons during bosses but they die in 2 hits. Like... come on, really?

It could be one more boss like in brayflox, or maybe one less, or maybe there is no fucking boss, as long as the rest is fresh and fun idk. Not like we don't have enough bosses in the game already... everything is turning into bosses those days, even solo instances.

[ovIm]

I don't think an unchanging formula has much to do with new player retention... Especially when even Yoshida said it was not likely to change specifically because it's a matter of chain productivity to be able to churn more in less time than anything else?

I would stop arguing with that person, really. They are as apologetic to CBU3 as Striker44 is to the point where I wonder if they are being paid by Square Enix.

The thing is - you are right here. Yoshi-P himself admitted that the reason we are so formulaic is that it helps keep the game running with little to no input from the producer. If nothing changes and the devs grind out the same content as always, there is nothing to control or to innovate, leaving the producer free to do other things (like direct FF16, go to board meetings, etc etc).

At this point, its painfully obvious that most people don't criticize the ever unchanging flow of expected content, but are bemoaning the fact that there is nothing new added to that. A solid combination of traditionally working content, new, exciting innovations, and gameplay content with a long shelf life would make for banger content drops.

Unfortunately, CBU3 are so trapped in their almost robotic schedule that there is no way to inject new things and ideas into the mix. One would need to upheave and redesign their approach if we wanted things to improve.

[Espon]

When I played other MMOs, while the holiday events lasted longer, they also repeated every year with sometimes not even having new items to obtain. Now, I'm not saying FF14's events are good. If anything, they've gone downhill since ARR launched. I remember the old events having more than just a single reward and a piece of furniture and required you to do special FATEs or minigames to earn those rewards instead of just talking to a few NPCs and watching some forgettable cutscenes.

I think a lot of the simplifying and cutting things down is due to player feedback. Unfortunately, a lot of players wanted shorter events, easy levelling, and simplified dungeons so that's what we got now. This forum only represents an extremely small part of the playerbase, and those that are unhappy are the ones most likely to voice their opinions.