What to manage as a tank?

[BabyYoda]

I believe you missed the point.

I pointed out that Enmity management wasn't that big thing everyone believe it used to be and you seem to agree.
While I pointed out NIN, even if you remove it from the equation the result remains unchanged: DPS & Healers managed more the Enmity than tanks.

You're arguing for a comeback of heavier Enmity management and sharing your opinion how it could be done.
I'll discuss that topic when I see actual tank players asking for enmity management but they seems okay with that.

either it was good or bad it is still better than high defense healers..

ShB was good spot for people who don't like emnity but this design show its colors in EW.. skills like bloodwhetting is a game breaking

there should be a design for this and I don't see anything other than mitigation management.. adding complexity to it make it much harder to mitigate certain attacks.. as hard as MNK, NIN, BLM rotations

this is the only way to save this sleepy role other than that we will still have this braindead job that is ruining healer role

[BabyYoda]

Maybe the problem was the fact that the NIN was the party arbiter of agro and not the agro mechanic itself

People always point to NIN as being the reason why the old agro system was bad but never look at the core of the system and realise it worked if you actually stuck it back in the hands of the tanks

Remove overpowered enmity control from NIN, remove the effect shirk had where each tank basically generated the other tanks enmity and then bump up the DPS/healers agro generation as a baseline.

now the tanks HAVE to occasionally resort to tank stance and the agro combos in order to hold agro. There is no “why didn’t you use diversion” or “WHM if you don’t use shroud before medica 2 im not helping you”, it becomes straight up a competence check on the tank to balance their DPS potential with their ability to hold agro.

This is the same concept as upping damage/pruning healing oGCD’s that like the old healing design enforced GCD healing. The only reason GCD healing is looked down on these days is because you generally don’t need it so using it either means someone made a mistake or the healer is less than competent. In a world where every 20 seconds you are faced with the decision of “press succor or die” then GCD’s wouldn’t be looked down on, the same system applies to tank agro

I didn't play highend at that time.. but for your explanation I see more teamwork and synergy with this kind of design than the current one

[Launched]

Remove overpowered enmity control from NIN, remove the effect shirk had where each tank basically generated the other tanks enmity and then bump up the DPS/healers agro generation as a baseline.

now the tanks HAVE to occasionally resort to tank stance and the agro combos in order to hold agro.

I don't think that makes the game any more interesting, it's just a reverse Storm's Eye. Instead of using a lower DPS combo as little as possible to keep your damage buff up, you're using a lower DPS combo as little as possible to keep enmity up/minimize DPS loss. But it's not as clear as watching a buff, and you lose more damage when partied with a high personal DPS job compared to ones that buff the entire party.

[Alice_Rivers]

Take time reading before answering with your feelings...
I've mentioned time and time again:
-Increase damage taken by the whole party and add significant raidwides and party wide debuff such as bleeding

ALL packs should have significant tank buster and have raidwides similar to The Strayborough Deadwalk's dolls but hitting harder
Tank excels at single target protection but are limited when helping the entire party.

-Restore Buff/Debuff play

What if packs would inflict a stackable "Physical Vulnerability Up" that would inevitably lead any tanks to be one-shot if the stack is too high?
What if tanks would get snared and unable to get out of AoEs without a Healer help?
As long as the game remains in this HP game we'll never solve the issue and go in a circle.

From the start that's what I want the battle mechanics to evolve into.

In principle I'm in favour of much of this. I recently did the level 91 dungeon MINE with a WAR and was honestly kinda disappointed with just how little threat was posed to the party. Add to that me soaking a tankbuster in Tender Valley as WHM without issue definitely says there's too little damage in dungeons for the level of self sustain tanks have and that should be increased, both in terms of direct damage and secondary sources (status effects), I'd also be up for restoring auto-attacks during mechanics and even allowing them to crit.

I'd go so far as to say that tank busters need to be doubled in terms of output, all the way back to Copperbell Mines, it's so bad there I don't even think about it or the aoes as a healer, I just stand there and keep dps-ing. There are probably other instances that I'm not thinking of right now, so yeah... Looking back at ARR there are instances of environmental mechanics that aren't there in current design that would be nice to have back. I'm not convinced this would sort out tank balance by itself but it's a starting point that doesn't involve a reduction in power so nobody should complain, right?

[Supersnow845]

I don't think that makes the game any more interesting, it's just a reverse Storm's Eye. Instead of using a lower DPS combo as little as possible to keep your damage buff up, you're using a lower DPS combo as little as possible to keep enmity up/minimize DPS loss. But it's not as clear as watching a buff, and you lose more damage when partied with a high personal DPS job compared to ones that buff the entire party.

I mean the purpose of the tank is to hold agro and manage it as part of their responsibility. If you see managing a secondary responsibility of your role as nothing more than an enforced DPS loss then what’s really the point

[CKNovel]

I mean the purpose of the tank is to hold agro and manage it as part of their responsibility. If you see managing a secondary responsibility of your role as nothing more than an enforced DPS loss then what’s really the point

I don't think you see their point, you can't see the tree for the forest or how it would affect the other roles as well. You're thinking with individuals instead of the party as a whole.
While healers have the party HP for responsibility, they're expected to do as much damage as possible and the least amount of GCD heals, everyone knows that.
Well that would be the similar approach for tanks, they're expected to do as much damage as possible and the least amount of GCD enmity.

Jobs aren't equal when it comes to enmity generation. Pure DPS and Pure Healer generates far more enmity.
That means they would suddenly be less popular due to conflicting with tank DPS as not having pure Healers/DPS would mean an increase of party DPS.
We'd shift to a Shield Healer and Raidbuff Meta as it would be the most optimal composition.
You'd even see tanks using way more oGCDs heals to generate more enmity, pushing more WAR and PLD.

Remember SAM wasn't popular in SB and SQEX keep reducing SAM, MNK and WHM enmity generation or giving them tools to reduce it.
We're talking about facts and known history, not an hypothetical future. I'm not arguing about the mentality but how it would shift into a meta we've known.

I know your goal is to make tanks feels terrible to play but you haven't thought this one through and through.

[Supersnow845]

“Your goal is to make tanks feel terrible to play”

I can’t improve on the absolute perfection that is the trashfire of modern tank design. Like I seriously would actively have to try to design tanks any worse than they currently are

I play tanks and I want them to be better and to me agro management is a core component of a tanks design. Why am I even here if I’m not controlling the raids agro. May as well slap tank stance on SAM and just delete the tanks with the current design. I have just as much right to discuss how I would make tanks better, you aren’t an arbiter of others ability to discuss a topic. I don’t enjoy the modern tanks both for what they do for healers AND playing them as tanks, you don’t get brownie points to be more qualified on a topic and have your opinion on modern tank design matter more because you like the modern design

Anyway as for your idea that it would enforce jobs that produce less personal DPS to increase the raids rDPS by forcing the tanks to spend less time generating agro that can easily be compensated by the same way we calculate rDPS itself considering that’s just a factor if the battle log that goes oh behind the scenes anyway. If you have a raid buff the damage you give with the raid buff is calculated towards your individual agro, for mitigation of the shield healers it’s counted as effective healing which generates healing agro, this is functionally how the old agro system already worked, trick generated rDPS agro, that’s part of the reason why it was given such powerful agro management tools

This is also ignoring the fact that a lot of what you are acting like will happen already happens and it really doesn’t affect the meta, the shield healers are already overwhelmingly more powerful, like it’s actually hilarious how much stronger the shield healers are, if a log could actually calculate how much overall safety the extra mitigation of the shield healers brings and add it as an form of rDPS the shield healers would be so ridiculously far above the regen healers that the regen role would be dead. Raid buffs are already preferred in the DPS, buffer’s already take up the top spot in all 3 DPS roles and speed kills already prioritise stacking raid buffs. This already happens and it doesn’t break the meta. This is to say nothing of the fact that jobs that have defensives already inherently save the healers damage over jobs that don’t and that doesn’t change the meta either

[CKNovel]

If you have a raid buff the damage you give with the raid buff is calculated towards your individual agro, for mitigation of the shield healers it’s counted as effective healing which generates healing agro, this is functionally how the old agro system already worked, trick generated rDPS agro, that’s part of the reason why it was given such powerful agro management tools

Congratulations you just banned Dancer, Bard and Astrologian who just generates too much enmity with their buffs and mitigation.
Or in the reverse, pure DPS will be even more let down as they would generate too much enmity for the rDPS jobs. MCH would suffer a lot.

I'm pretty sure you're mistaken about trick attack generating enmity:
The XIV wiki that tracks changes doesn't mentions it., neither does the early infographic mentions anything about enmity.
But the XI wiki mentions enmity
I don't see any mention on rDPS enmity, if you have any sources I'll be glad if you could share them with me.

[Supersnow845]

I’m confused first you say that pure DPS jobs will be locked out because they will generate too much agro relative to the buffer’s for this to be balanced then when I said “okay balance it by rDPS” which is what the classes are net balanced around and now suddenly the buffers are overpowered and thus wouldn’t work either

SAM does more rDPS than DNC does so who’s the banned one here?

[CKNovel]

How much enmity will AST be gathering if 3 pure and a PCT hits within their buffs? On top of all the mitigation and raw healing?
You don't have to tunnel on DNC, AST is far enough for an example.

trick generated rDPS agro, that’s part of the reason why it was given such powerful agro management tools

Also, the sources, pretty please.