Concerns Regarding DPS Balance: Physical Ranged, Red Mage, and Summoner

[PercibelTheren]

devs problem is they are listening 2 group of people: High end raiders who cares about how efficient jobs need to be.. and newbies who just get stressed so often and need to make jobs easier.

They actually don't listen to anyone. They just make changes and then cherry pick one guy on who complained somewhere so that they can say "See? People wanted this!".

[Sayori]

Been an RDM main since stormblood release. I'm sad about it's state and I really wish the devs would do something.

Let's take a look at some of my issues:
- RDM is the only caster without self mitigation and thus being the squishiest of the bunch.
- Whilst RDM has magick barrier, it's just magical dmg reduction, making it essentially useless for the most of the first arcadion tier. I'm aware of the 5% hp recovery too, but it's so low that it may as well not be there.
- RDM has no 'real' on demand movement tools; acceleration and swiftcast are being used to align your fleche/c6 rather than for movement. Grand impact, which was supposed to be a movement tool, shares it's button with jolt. This makes it's purpose useless beyond damage, and it just feels awkward to use.
- Reprise being a 5/5 gauge trade for movement has been a slap in the face ever since it's been added to the game, it's literally never worth using it.
- Melee combo forcing RDM to be in melee range during 2 minutes. This can be really awkward as you might have to adjust strats depending on the fight, or it's just straight up impossible to completely get all skills in during buffs due to this. This results in loss of dps, whilst already being in the bottom. Yet we have PCT hammer out here being ranged.
- Raising (or using anything at all really) during melee combo completely kills your DPS as a RDM, and I wish it wouldn't break the combo.

Don't get me started on raise and how high the dev team seems to value this tool. I get that raise speeds up prog by a lot, but beyond prog RDM and SMN are literally useless. The difference in DPS between the res-casters and other casters is simply ridiculous.
I'm not asking for RDM/SMN to be in the same ballpark as BLM or PCT, but I think the difference should be 300~500 dps at best, not straight up 2k+
Also with swiftcast being on 40s now, healers are capable of raising more than ever, making SMN and RDM effectively less useful.
Raising people during the fight is already a penalty on it's own. Next to weakness debuff you spend gcds and as RDM you even lose out on gauge and possibly another melee combo.

The entire caster role is a big mess right now, Square doesn't know what they want to do with it and they HAVE to fix it. Either kill raise at this point or just make it a role ability or something.
Until they fix this mess, I'll keep on painting instead. It's a shame, cause I still love how RDM plays.

[Atmaweapon510]

The dps difference between the highest and lowest job should be 6-7% at most so that the lowest job is always worth bringing even just for the role buff. Right now that difference is higher than 10% which is absolutely inexcusable. There's a clear gap between the 5 lowest jobs and the next highest that needs to be bridged by an outright 5% dps buff to their personal damage output.

If the dps checks were even somewhat relevant this tier, the forums would have been a complete bloodbath like in P8S.

[Lyth]

Don't get me started on raise and how high the dev team seems to value this tool. I get that raise speeds up prog by a lot, but beyond prog RDM and SMN are literally useless. The difference in DPS between the res-casters and other casters is simply ridiculous.

Raise being a 'job-specific' action is the only reason why the discrepancy exists. If Raise was simply a ranged role action, nobody would be penalized for bringing it. It doesn't make sense to have a higher and lower tier of Caster DPS when they're supposedly all the same role.

They also really need to find another reason to justify Physical Ranged's existence outside of the 1% buff. I think a lot of this comes down to the fact that utility and 'difficulty' have been used for years to justify the role being positioned as inferior to Casters, to the point that the role has finally reached a breaking point.

[BabyYoda]

Raise being a 'job-specific' action is the only reason why the discrepancy exists. If Raise was simply a ranged role action, nobody would be penalized for bringing it. It doesn't make sense to have a higher and lower tier of Caster DPS when they're supposedly all the same role.

They also really need to find another reason to justify Physical Ranged's existence outside of the 1% buff. I think a lot of this comes down to the fact that utility and 'difficulty' have been used for years to justify the role being positioned as inferior to Casters, to the point that the role has finally reached a breaking point.

SMN and RDM doesn't have to compete with BLM and PCT damage.. but with their support capabilities

they can have lower damage sure.. but also support capabilities too.. ability to have limited shields and heals and mitigations.. raise..

if we want these jobs to balance they have to keep them as supports not a selfish damage dealers.

[Sylvain]

devs problem is they are listening 2 group of people: High end raiders who cares about how efficient jobs need to be.. and newbies who just get stressed so often and need to make jobs easier.

Which I mean... makes sens?
Most players are casual so listening to what they struggle with helps making a game that the majority of players will enjoy playing. And yes it might mean dumbing down a few things.
On the other hand, balance at high end raiding is important because you kinda want that people can play every job at high end and also avoid situation where everyone avoids some under performing jobs, including casual playing in a content where it doesn't matter at all (yes, I've seen players doing only expert roulette worrying about grieving the group by coming as a SMN...)

So in an ideal world you want all your job to be played roughly evenly by everyone AND the whole shmebling to be balanced all while having every job *unique*

I have listed a suggestions in many posts of how to give purpose for each role but Idk if devs are listening or they are busy with their NFT project that have peak 20 players each month..

Your suggestion not being implemented do not mean they are not listening.

Not saying they are all wise, perfect etc, far from that, but they do listen. BLM getting Paradox is a clear indication that they do.
They might simply not be pleased with what they come up for solutions. One thing for sure is that they don't like changing things too much mid-way.

[BabyYoda]

Which I mean... makes sens?
Most players are casual so listening to what they struggle with helps making a game that the majority of players will enjoy playing. And yes it might mean dumbing down a few things.
On the other hand, balance at high end raiding is important because you kinda want that people can play every job at high end and also avoid situation where everyone avoids some under performing jobs, including casual playing in a content where it doesn't matter at all (yes, I've seen players doing only expert roulette worrying about grieving the group by coming as a SMN...)

So in an ideal world you want all your job to be played roughly evenly by everyone AND the whole shmebling to be balanced all while having every job *unique*

Your suggestion not being implemented do not mean they are not listening.

Not saying they are all wise, perfect etc, far from that, but they do listen. BLM getting Paradox is a clear indication that they do.
They might simply not be pleased with what they come up for solutions. One thing for sure is that they don't like changing things too much mid-way.

What is wrong on listening to casual players?
dumbing down jobs and mocking their identity so tanks can heal and healers simplified and dps is 1 button combo.. because casuals get stressed quickly

what is wrong on listening to high end raiders?
they just want job braindead as casual do.. not because of making the job performance better but to make the jobs simplified to the point where they can clear content easier to the point where they have 2 min window to make the job less stress in other windows

People like me are not high-end raiders and not casuals is suffering from how low job engagement currently is.. tanks have nothing to manage.. healers have 1 dot 1 spam and can be replaced easily.. DPS jobs have simplified kit 1 button combo.

The game balance issue comes from 2min window.. burst jobs like PCT/ RPR designed around 2min window perfectly.. the issue that other jobs who isn't designed around 2 min window are suffering "non-burst jobs"
this makes the game less balance if they buff burst jobs non burst jobs will suffer and if they buff non burst jobs burst jobs will suffer.

I maybe do not have best solutions but I know where is the problem.. I am not a gamedev after all..

Paradox getting back is nice.. but what about other 16 jobs? what about healer role? what about Phy range? what about self sufficient tanks? what about 2min meta?

listening to 1 thing out of 20 other things isn't listening

[Sylvain]

What is wrong on listening to casual players?
dumbing down jobs and mocking their identity so tanks can heal and healers simplified and dps is 1 button combo.. because casuals get stressed quickly

what is wrong on listening to high end raiders?
they just want job braindead as casual do.. not because of making the job performance better but to make the jobs simplified to the point where they can clear content easier to the point where they have 2 min window to make the job less stress in other windows

I highly doubt most casual and high end raider want brain dead jobs, as per usual you're hyper dramatic and make a fuss about anything which isn't how you want it to be. If a job has too many APM, it's too stressful (see your recent AST post), if it doesn't have enough, then it's brain dead. As too many people, anything that doesn't specifically catter to your need and skill is dogshit.

Most casual want a job that is intuitive and which makes sens without a bajillion exceptions. Basically, they just want to log on and have fun without too much hassle.
Old SMN as intricate as it was didn't fill the bill because its mechanics were convoluted. I mean, what casual would think that addle makes for a good dps boost during bahamut. As much as the new summoner may be boring to most veteran players, it is flashy and intuitive and the job as a whole makes sens.

People like me are not high-end raiders and not casuals is suffering from how low job engagement currently is.. tanks have nothing to manage.. healers have 1 dot 1 spam and can be replaced easily.. DPS jobs have simplified kit 1 button combo.

Suffering, only that.

Not sure what management you talk about regarding tank, they have their dps rotation like all dps and some mitigation. Fine if all you're doing is expert roulette than sure perhaps boss should be a bit more engaging on hitting the tanks. To me the core of the issue isn't the kit but that we overgear current contet way too fast. And obviously healer and tank suffer the most from that.

DPS have simplified kit 1 button combo... beside "color in element" from the picto who exactly has a 1 button combo? I don't know how many buttons you want but most job have about 15-20 buttons I mean... that's a really decent amount. Sure some button change and that's for the best. Imagine summoner if every single action was a differnt button... god. I mean even pictomancer, you'd go from 2 paints buttons to 12. Maybe you want that but I don't see most players wanting half their action bar being color combo. But I mean, to each their own.

I maybe do not have best solutions but I know where is the problem.. I am not a gamedev after all..

Paradox getting back is nice.. but what about other 16 jobs? what about healer role? what about Phy range? what about self sufficient tanks? what about 2min meta?

listening to 1 thing out of 20 other things isn't listening

Players, or people in general, are very good at knowing where a problem is, or at least feeling it. But indeed a careful examination of what most people propose reveals that nearly everything that is proposed would usually result in a worst scenario or simply different problems.

Any change they implement might induce new problemes and we've seen that not every addition are good (BLM FlareStar...).
You want them to add dps skills to healers? I want that, many do...
But then... what if your favorite healer get a new rotation that you actually dislike? What if the net result is that they over did it and most but the best healer struggle to upkeep their rotation + healing which results in overall lower dps at all level and perf (but the best). Is it ok to have an even bigger variance on healer dps which is already quite large?

Then you have the ergonomy of adding yet again more buttons in a game already bloated with actions.
They could remove some skills as everyone seems to complain that we got too many healing skills... what do you cut to make room? Will all 4 healers still be well balanced?

That's a lot of uncertainty... Then what if the end result is that for real 10-20% of healers, mostly casual, reroll or stop playing because they don't enjoy the pressure/new direction?
Game's unplayable, you might not be a healer but every dps and tank might as well stop playing if any expert roulette end up being a 2h queue because all haelers stopped playing... What if it leads to subscription loss (and not just the usual up and down of casual doing the story every 4 month)

My point being, by changing/adding stuff you might end up making the situation worse. (BLM's a good example again)

You might prefer that but then again, japanese aren't known for being reckless designers. They prefer doing small changes overtime and keep the big one for expansions.

Voicing your concerns is fine and you should but seriously this tendancy of being overly dramatic doesn't serve you. It makes you just look like an angry brat.

*people like me are suffering*...

[BabyYoda]

...

Lol you seems so angry..
it is OK to have different view and not agreeing with me but I can have my opinion..

[Reldhir]

Part of me wants to empathise with phys ranged dps mains but as someone who plays most other roles but not phys ranged I kinda have always seen phys ranged as the "free" slot xD

IM not speaking about YOU personally... but in my many years of admittedly anecdotal experience. The lower skilled players tend to congregate to the phys ranged role because its very approachable. No melee range downtime to have to negotiate and no casts to have to navigate. Its free as a bird with a simple rotation. If you're a dancer you even have 3 stacks of the get out of jail free card (or a go directly to jail card depending on who you ask)

There has been zero content that you've excluded a physranged because their damage was low. 99% of 8 person groups still take one phys ranged.

Another way to perhaps look at it is because phys ranged output is lower in potential, a lower performing player also has a reduced impact on team performance. Basically, you take a bigger hit if your picto performs poorly vs your dancer. This only further pushes phys ranged as the "free" role in a party. That is not to say skilled phys ranged players can't or don't make an absolute impact in raid groups, but if you could only have a handful of highly skilled players in your group, you'd get more bang for buck placing them in the higher output roles. Likewise if you have peeps that are maybe new or are a little slower on the uptake, having them in the phys ranged slot can mitigate the inexperience.

You could absolutely argue that this is not a good design choice but I absolutely have taken advantage of the fact when putting together groups for friends xD if any of those friends ends up reading this though, know that I <3 you all the same xD

Someones gotta be the bottom~ ✌

(Just being a bit cheeky pls no murder)