[SPOILERS] Dawntrail should get an ARR-style retcon in the post-MSQ

[OMGJesuis66]

It completely messed with my headcanon even outside of my actual opinion of the endless

Long before the endless I created a headcanon for my WOL that due to traumatic events in their past they absolutely refuse to be the one to declare another “being” as worthy or unworthy of life

I thought this was pretty safe as a headcanon because the WOL is designed to be good

It’s hilarious how badly the endless ripped my headcanon to shreds and that was built on existing logic from the previous expansions

Considering that the Endless cannot ever be alive again and instead gets a new soul to act as a battery, while using all the fundaments that existed in previous expansions and twisting it to a very nefarious end, I personally think it's exciting to put yourself in your WoL perspective once more and work on the headcannon of having something that struck directly to his moralities and why that was the case.

[Eyrilona]

Considering that the Endless cannot ever be alive again and instead gets a new soul to act as a battery, while using all the fundaments that existed in previous expansions and twisting it to a very nefarious end, I personally think it's exciting to put yourself in your WoL perspective once more and work on the headcannon of having something that struck directly to his moralities and why that was the case.

That only works if the reason wasn't "because the writers of the msq took over control of my character, and of all my formerly trusted friends, sidelined any agency I thought I'd have, and made us all do something I hated without even allowing our character to question it, and then immediately after went of to have a big happy celebration set to some upbeat song from Disney", which is the case here. You *can't* rework your headcanon around that because you have to either accept that your character never was or no longer is the person you want to play as, or you reject the canonicity of what happened in the game and hope that the devs will never refer back to it as a thing that happened ever again.

[Supersnow845]

That only works if the reason wasn't "because the writers of the msq took over control of my character, and of all my formerly trusted friends, sidelined any agency I thought I'd have, and made us all do something I hated without even allowing our character to question it, and then immediately after went of to have a big happy celebration set to some upbeat song from Disney", which is the case here. You *can't* rework your headcanon around that because you have to either accept that your character never was or no longer is the person you want to play as, or you reject the canonicity of what happened in the game and hope that the devs will never refer back to it as a thing that happened ever again.

Which is a good explanation of what I ended up doing

The endless conflicted so so badly with my players headcanon that I just ended up rewriting the endless to fit my headcanon because there is no way what my WOL did in DT’s story could ever match who I write them as as a person. My WOL is dogged in his beliefs that he doesn’t have a right to assign humanity or lack thereof to another, it’s literally his entire guiding principle in life, how do I reconcile that with the endless

Does that make me sorta narrow and uncreative, I guess you could say it does but the conflict is so great that it just……….is impossible for me to reconcile

[OMGJesuis66]

That only works if the reason wasn't "because the writers of the msq took over control of my character, and of all my formerly trusted friends, sidelined any agency I thought I'd have, and made us all do something I hated without even allowing our character to question it, and then immediately after went of to have a big happy celebration set to some upbeat song from Disney", which is the case here. You *can't* rework your headcanon around that because you have to either accept that your character never was or no longer is the person you want to play as, or you reject the canonicity of what happened in the game and hope that the devs will never refer back to it as a thing that happened ever again.

Suspension of disbelief is a wonderful thing, but I know how that feels. I loathed every second Shadowbringers forced my WoL to be emphatic towards Emet and the Ancients, saying he had a promise to keep to him, missing him, and that he was going to understand him and all of the villains in a cuddly fashion way that has been simply imposed on my character over the narrative. It's a "single player" narrative. And the truth is, this is scripted. There's no actual player agency. There will be moments when you will be yanked of seeing your WoL as your WoL. I had those moments aplenty in Shadowbringers and Endwalker. You had now in Dawntrail. It's individual stuff, everyone can find a way to handle it because it will hit them one day or the other.

[Eyrilona]

Suspension of disbelief is a wonderful thing, but I know how that feels. I loathed every second Shadowbringers forced my WoL to be emphatic towards Emet and the Ancients, saying he had a promise to keep to him, missing him, and that he was going to understand him and all of the villains in a cuddly fashion way that has been simply imposed on my character over the narrative. It's a "single player" narrative. And the truth is, this is scripted. There's no actual player agency. There will be moments when you will be yanked of seeing your WoL as your WoL. I had those moments aplenty in Shadowbringers and Endwalker. You had now in Dawntrail. It's individual stuff, everyone can find a way to handle it because it will hit them one day or the other.

Even when disagreeing with the sentiment of ShB though, at least that expansion got points for style. Which is a lot harder to say about Dawntrail, which violates so many conventions of good writing that it would still be rough to get through even if you did agree with the subject matter, never mind if you don't...

[OMGJesuis66]

Even when disagreeing with the sentiment of ShB though, at least that expansion got points for style. Which is a lot harder to say about Dawntrail, which violates so many conventions of good writing that it would still be rough to get through even if you did agreed with the subject matter, never mind if you don't...

We can agree to disagree, to me, the WoL being Azem was the lowest point of the whole narrative. I never fancied "Chosen One" tropes and the more I had to be emphatic towards Emet and appreciate Elpis in Endwalker, I felt completely disconnected from my character. Elpis salvation was that I related more to Hermes out of everyone, and as funny as it may be, I never felt so immersed in my character than when he got into Heritage Found, for in my headcannon, he would abhor everything in there and feel a solemn duty to put those matters to rest. Each character is an individual at the end of the day, mine would set Living Memory to rest with sadness, pride, and obstinate to make it right to bring their memories to those who had forgotten them, which was all of Solution 9. Or at least carry the burden forward.

Dawntrail narrative suffered from pacing, it was not a bad narrative, the problem was the delivery. It was too short and too long at the same time, was unable to properly put everything in perspective with the time necessary, it was an expansion meant to be BIG, and they had to fit a whole buffet inside a meal box. It wasn't going to work. I blame the fact they were conservative and too afraid to break from their formula of expansions made since Stormblood, truth be told. We needed more time, more zones, a proper explanation of events in each zone without making it feel forced, absence of Wuk Lamat after her coronation. But the story really ain't bad, at all. For FFXIV standards maybe, but, eh.

[Eyrilona]

We can agree to disagree, to me, the WoL being Azem was the lowest point of the whole narrative. I never fancied "Chosen One" tropes and the more I had to be emphatic towards Emet and appreciate Elpis in Endwalker, I felt completely disconnected from my character. Elpis salvation was that I related more to Hermes out of everyone, and as funny as it may be, I never felt so immersed in my character than when he got into Heritage Found, for in my headcannon, he would abhor everything in there and feel a solemn duty to put those matters to rest. Each character is an individual at the end of the day, mine would set Living Memory to rest with sadness, pride, and obstinate to make it right to bring their memories to those who had forgotten them, which was all of Solution 9. Or at least carry the burden forward.

I think that our WoL's soul being a sundered fragment of that of Azem was fine, but it should only have been used as a device to explain why those of the Ancients/Ascians that were close to Azem would have felt differently about us than about any other sundered mortal. I don't really care for this whole baggage where we are now more or less guided towards trying to re-tread Azem's steps as if we are under some obligation now to pick up where they left off and continue a legacy or something. We already have an abundance of legacy of our own as heroes in our own right, we didn't need some outside source to give us something to live up to for the next ten years.

[Raven2014]

We can agree to disagree, to me, the WoL being Azem was the lowest point of the whole narrative. I never fancied "Chosen One" tropes ...

Then I'm not sure why you stick to the game that long tbh. The WoL has been the chosen one since day one, you didn't have to wait until ShB to become one. I don't think the relevation of the WoL being Azem make us any more of a chosen one than we already are from the beginning. All it does is establish a connection between our character and the past, and that rarely is a bad thing.

....I felt completely disconnected from my character.

I don't think this is a game where you're supposed to self-insert as the WoL, unlike say ... Mass Effect where you can self-insert as Shepard and role play the good cop/bad cop action. The personality and narrative for the WoL is set in stone. If anything, I feel the connection to Azem flesh out the personality of the the WoL a lot more. Up until the relevation, I sometime get annoyed with the WoL's terminal case of selflessness like ... no one can be that much of a goodies two shoes who keep throwing their life away and jumping into fire to save others. But when it's revealed that how Azem is, both as a personality and the responsibility of their office. If we assume all Azem office holders carry the same zeal (Emet implied as much), that means our WoL would love the world as much as Venat do. As such, it helps justify the hopelessly good personality the WoL has.

Again, I don't think the Azem connection is intended for you to be relatable to the WoL, but rather to flesh out the WoL as a character, and it does a very good job at that.

[lolnotacat]

Again, I don't think the Azem connection is intended for you to be relatable to the WoL, but rather to flesh out the WoL as a character, and it does a very good job at that.

Agreed. Since we're a mostly silent protagonist in a rigid story where motivations are pretty much required, this helps give us some backstory and canon. You glean little bits of insight with some of the dialog too, and all the answers are meant to be partially Azem, and partially WoL. The only time I can really think of a self-insert being possible is during the small 4th wall breaks in Endwalker. That I can't deny.

[Gaddes]

Then I'm not sure why you stick to the game that long tbh. The WoL has been the chosen one since day one, you didn't have to wait until ShB to become one.

This wasn't true back in A Realm Reborn, though... it only started manifesting around Heavensward when we were reforging our little multi-colored crystal circle. Back in ARR we were just one of potentially many WoLs, as is illustrated in this cutscene:
https://youtu.be/Yeyl7-waHKQ?si=br8CtX5kaZKi8saV&t=426
It definitely seemed like they were acknowledging many warriors of light (basically the MMO aspect of many players) back then. This certainly changed down the line to narratively focus on a singular WoL, but it was not that way since day one. All of them were "chosen" by Hydaelyn, but it took a little while for you to step up and basically be the best of the best.

I don't think this is a game where you're supposed to self-insert as the WoL, unlike say ... Mass Effect where you can self-insert as Shepard and role play the good cop/bad cop action.

It may not be a true self-insert like Mass Effect, but they do clearly want you to feel like you at least exert some connection or control over the Warrior of Light, because you periodically get dialogue options. Scant and not a lot of variety in them, I know, but if there was truly no semblance of self-insert, it would be like any other FF where all the dialogue would be pre-selected and you wouldn't get a choice like that. There are certainly some established WoL traits that you cannot change regardless of player desire (like how the WoL canonically likes or sympathizes with certain characters... Haurchefant, Emet, etc), but it's not wholly without player input.