[SPOILERS] Dawntrail should get an ARR-style retcon in the post-MSQ

[Raven2014]

The endless are 100% implied to have sapience because an AI program created to eternally preserve a persons memories would be unable to take steps towards ending its own existence. Cauchia is definitive proof the endless have a degree of agency

No it's not. Otherwise you may as well call the current AI tech we have as Sapience. And I'm not talking about generative AI. There are a lot of stream/chat AI that can seemingly give reaction/opinion based on their assigned personality. I can link you a few video if you want.

You're talking about self-preservation code/program which for the most part is a Hollywood invention. Remember that even though most human has strong self-preservation instinct, we're still capably of making sacrifice. Since Cauchia is a big picture person, it's not strange for a program that simulate her to come to the same conclusion. In fact, you argument would make more sense if the program makes a decision that show a divergent from its original template.

Yep, Cahciua calls the Endless a facsimile. A facsimile is an exact copy of the original. It's equivalent to a clone and in this case, the clone is fully sentient.

No it does not, and I'll give you one word: Otis.

The sentient argument only makes sense if all Endless are like the mechanical Otis. Meaning they are a unique existence.

There is a saying: there is only one existence to a life.

And it's heavily implied that mechanical Otis inherit the original soul, than what the hell is the Z6 Otis if not just a fake copy? And if Z6 Otis is a fake copy, than by proxy all the Z6 Endless are as well.

[AnotherPerson]

But okay, let me do a proper post here.

Living Memory, by its standards, is an artificial Aetherial Sea. Denizens inside are not alive, their behavior, dreams, aspirations and sentience comes from their memories of when they were once alive.

The accurate statement that each individual there is, is that the are Ghosts. We are familiar in FFXIV that Ghosts hold memories and wants from when they were alive, and most of them builds rancor towards the living for being capable to do the things they desire to do, but are unable to. Thus, turning into monsters.

An addendum to that, is that on Deadwalk, we are in a portion of Living Memory where the fault of Aether made the place unstable and shatter, the memories in the terminal there turned into their own sorrows and became what? Monsters. In particular, Ghosts.

If by any means you want to argue that what we did in Living Memory was a genocide, you also need to consider all the Ashkins killed by us in the past and consider every Ashkin as an actual living being. From Palace of the Dead, to Sirensong Sea, etc, etc.

The formula to create both Ashkins and the Endless is the same. Incorporeal Aether (Souls), Life Force and Memories. Therefore, no. None of them are alive, none of them are real beyond what their memories made of them, and they are unable to make new ones.

Living Memory passed a beautiful message to understand, respect and carry on the legacy of those who fell before you, while you allow them to rest and finally sleep as the deserve so you can keep moving forward and carry their burdens with you and with respect.

But to resume that to "genocide" is of such dishonesty and a disservice to the place that's stunning af.

You should really re-read the entire lore instead to realize how much errors you have in understanding the concepts you wrote.

We do kill for a living as an adventurer. We do commit murders, but done with a self justification. When there are Ashkins that hurt others, it gives us a reason to remove them. There is a reason why DRK has such a good storyline because it goes into detail about what our actions, even justified, can cause to others. We do things because it's righteous, but even so there's consequences in our actions.

Ashkins like zombies are sentient (see: Manderville storyline with the 4 gentlemen of light). As much as a joke of a storyline it is, the implications of the storyline shows a clearer view of the interactions of other races post-death. However, not all of them were taken careful means to preserve their memory as in the case with the Endless.

The Endless are not actively trying to hurt others, they end up hurting others by their means of creation (needing aether to sustain themselves).

And if you're going to say they can't make new ones, you basically just said Cahciua hasn't made a single new memory after we see her interact with Erenville in LM and outside of LM.

No it's not. Otherwise you may as well call the current AI tech we have as Sapience. And I'm not talking about generative AI. There are a lot of stream/chat AI that can seemingly give reaction/opinion based on their assigned personality. I can link you a few video if you want.

You're talking about self-preservation code/program which for the most part is a Hollywood invention. Remember that even though most human has strong self-preservation instinct, we're still capably of making sacrifice. Since Cauchia is a big picture person, it's not strange for a program that simulate her to come to the same conclusion. In fact, you argument would make more sense if the program makes a decision that show a divergent from its original template.


No it does not, and I'll give you one word: Otis.

The sentient argument only makes sense if all Endless are like the mechanical Otis. Meaning they are a unique existence.

There is a saying: there is only one existence to a life.

And it's heavily implied that mechanical Otis inherit the original soul, than what the hell is the Z6 Otis if not just a fake copy? And if Z6 Otis is a fake copy, than by proxy all the Z6 Endless are as well.

You forget Otis is also the exception where he had Experiments done in his memory. Other Endless simply die and have their memory uploaded to the Cloud, creating a continued existence in their life.

Otis, along with Sphene, are more or less the rare exceptions because they don't follow the normal procedure to having their memories uploaded after death without any tampering. Otis was still alive when his memory was uploaded (hence he does not have any shared memories of robot Otis), but the same cannot be said for other Endless. Besides, what constitutes as a fake? For the Endless, they are effectively copied over. It's more akin to a clone.

And Clones already have established in-lore reasons for being "alive" through ARR to Endwalker even if they aren't the originals. Even if you don't see the Endless as the same person, they are still "alive" in another sense.

[Raven2014]

You forget Otis is also the exception where he had Experiments done in his memory. Other Endless simply die and have their memory uploaded to the Cloud, creating a continued existence in their life.

Otis, along with Sphene, are more or less the rare exceptions because they don't follow the normal procedure to having their memories uploaded after death without any tampering. Otis was still alive when his memory was uploaded (hence he does not have any shared memories of robot Otis), but the same cannot be said for other Endless. Besides, what constitutes as a fake? For the Endless, they are effectively copied over. It's more akin to a clone.

If I kill the human Otis, then I murder a human.

If I kill the mechanical Otis who actually contain the original soul, in extension it can be also a murder of a unique soul/being.

The problem with the S9 Otis is its existence is a proof that it's not a unique entity. So if the S9 Otis can be create without the original soul but with just mere data, if a 2nd copy can be created, why not 3, why not 10, why not 100? So if I delete the S9 data and the system had created 100 copies of him, am I guilty of murdering 100 Otis?

I said this in a similar thread before, the concept of the Endless (digitalize consciousness) is not news, it has been done many times before. And every time, for this concept to hold water they all have to follow one cardinal rule: there is only one existence to a life. It is the absolutely rule that must be follow for the story of a digital being to have the same impact as a real person. In Zegapain, each individual is a unique quantum package. In Ghost of the Shell or Tokyo Necro, even when an individual has multiple "backup" version of themselves, only one can be active as a time when it host the original consciousness.

By having 2 Otis exist as the time time, the writer of the Endless violated the core principal for this concept to work which make everything that follow to be meaningless garbage. No matter how hard they try to insert the moral or emotional triggers into it, it doesn't change the fact that all I did was shut down a program with no unique individuality.

And Clones already have established in-lore reasons for being "alive" through ARR to Endwalker even if they aren't the originals. Even if you don't see the Endless as the same person, they are still "alive" in another sense.

No, this is not cloning. Cloning is a technology we already have in the 20th century. Cloning doesn't copy a person, nor the memory. You have someone with the exact same DNA but that clone will have to grow up, lead a different life, and experience different thing. The fact the Endless is an exact copy of "memory" without the original soul means if anything, it's about as far away from an actual clone would be.

[Supersnow845]

If I kill the human Otis, then I murder a human.

If I kill the mechanical Otis who actually contain the original soul, in extension it can be also a murder of a unique soul/being.

The problem with the S9 Otis is its existence is a proof that it's not a unique entity. So if the S9 Otis can be create without the original soul but with just mere data, if a 2nd copy can be created, why not 3, why not 10, why not 100? So if I delete the S9 data and the system had created 100 copies of him, am I guilty of murdering 100 Otis?

I said this in a similar thread before, the concept of the Endless (digitalize consciousness) is not news, it has been done many times before. And every time, for this concept to hold water they all have to follow one cardinal rule: there is only one existence to a life. It is the absolutely rule that must be follow for the story of a digital being to have the same impact as a real person. In Zegapain, each individual is a unique quantum package. In Ghost of the Shell or Tokyo Necro, even when an individual has multiple "backup" version of themselves, only one can be active as a time when it host the original consciousness.

By having 2 Otis exist as the time time, the writer of the Endless violated the core principal for this concept to work which make everything that follow to be meaningless garbage. No matter how hard they try to insert the moral or emotional triggers into it, it doesn't change the fact that all I did was shut down a program with no unique individuality.




No, this is not cloning. Cloning is a technology we already have in the 20th century. Cloning doesn't copy a person, nor the memory. You have someone with the exact same DNA but that clone will have to grow up, lead a different life, and experience different thing. The fact the Endless is an exact copy of "memory" without the original soul means if anything, it's about as far away from an actual clone would be.

Yes because endless Otis is not the same “being” as original Otis but is still a being worthy of consideration of life because he has sapience

This is what I think people miss about moral discussions about the endless. The endless are not the people whose memories were used to create them, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t beings in their own right, almost all of the endless who speak show an ability to evolve and grow beyond the temporal lock the system spits them out into so they show sapience

By “killing” endless Otis you aren’t killing Otis, you are killing endless Otis who is a different unique entity and there is no suggestion that the system can create two endless of one person at the same time, so you are killing the unique entity “endless Otis” who ISNT Otis

[Raven2014]

The endless are not the people whose memories were used to create them,

Yes, they're program.

but that doesn’t mean they aren’t beings in their own right, almost all of the endless who speak show an ability to evolve and grow beyond the temporal lock the system spits them out into so they show sapience

Self-learning AI is a technology we already have today. And what do you think the purpose of self-learning AI? If evolving is your ONLY requirement to define sapience living, than a lot of programer/scientist should go to jail whenever a sim or server is shut down.

And ... that is if there is any kind of evolving to begin with. Like ... show me an example of what is this "evolve" that you keep bringing up because I went through the MSQ 4 times, and I don't remember seeing any that will fit the word.

By “killing” endless Otis you aren’t killing Otis, you are killing endless Otis who is a different unique entity and there is no suggestion that the system can create two endless of one person at the same time, so you are killing the unique entity “endless Otis” who ISNT Otis

And ... you missed ... or more probably ... avoided the most important bit.

The point wasn't how unique the two Otis are. The point is ... there are two COPIES of one person. Either you are one individual, or you are not. Once you cross that threshold allow the existence of a 2nd copy, the writing fall apart. Like I said, if the system can just create a 2nd copy of Otis without the soul of the original, what about a 3rd, a 4th, or a 100th? Without that addressed, it makes every copies of Otis a meaningless existence.

Like I said, look back at the last 30-40 years of media, this is not a new concept. But the "unique consciousness" has always been the requirement to connect the "living" aspect to "digitalize" being. That's what make when a digitalize person die, the players can feel as if it's a real human. Without that connection/requirement, then it's just a program.