[SPOILERS] Dawntrail should get an ARR-style retcon in the post-MSQ

[PercibelTheren]

Dawntrail is a parody and not meant to be taken seriously, we're still asleep on the boat on the way to Tural.

Did you really think the writers would mess up such a simple sci-fi concept after Shadowbringers and Endwalker? Surely you jest.

Considering how bad I thought Endwalker was, yes, I think they would mess it up because they already have. There is so much atrocious writing in the game that I think the one jesting here must be you with your suggestion that they are self aware enough for Dawntrail to be intentionally written as a parody. Even if it somehow was, that's just more upsetting because they need to keep this garbage to Hildibrand and not put it into the MSQ.

[Connor]

If they are just programs then most of the second half of dawntrail is just roleplaying with chatbots...

Pretty much, ChatBots that have been programmed with the memories of a previously living people to give the impression of life. I mean, Chatbots can seem sentient too if they have machine learning, right? (They also turn bizarrely prejudicial when drawing from the internet lol but let’s assume we have the technology to perfect it).

It’s basically FFXIV Black Mirror lol. They look and seem human, but that’s only because of the technology at play being highly advanced. I mean, if the Endless were truly sentient then Cahciua or Krile’s parents could’ve just pulled the plug on themselves or willed themselves to shut down, right? They could conceptualise the idea but their programming wouldn’t let them actualise it

[Rin_Sato]

Pretty much, ChatBots that have been programmed with the memories of a previously living people to give the impression of life. I mean, Chatbots can seem sentient too if they have machine learning, right? (They also turn bizarrely prejudicial when drawing from the internet lol but let’s assume we have the technology to perfect it).

It’s basically FFXIV Black Mirror lol. They look and seem human, but that’s only because of the technology at play being highly advanced. I mean, if the Endless were truly sentient then Cahciua or Krile’s parents could’ve just pulled the plug on themselves or willed themselves to shut down, right? They could conceptualise the idea but their programming wouldn’t let them actualise it

I hope this is bait

[Connor]

I hope this is bait

Nope

If I was going to bait or troll why would I choose such a specifically niche topic and not one of the many many ‘Wuk Bad / Wuk Good’ threads?

[Kranel_San]

The Endless are AI's. They are not "clearly sentient people." They are AI's programmed to act like the people they are based on, but as we see in the case of Sphene, even that programming can be "tweaked" to emphasize or de-emphasize things about them. They are the equivalent of ChatGPT's given bodies. EW was about valuing beings that were actually real, living creatures. DT is about letting go and moving forward with our lives.

Also, don't forget that Alexandria itself effectively invaded and conquered part of Tural. It exists on the Source, in Tural, and is part of Tuliyollal's empire (including the Turali people it took away from their own lives by isolating them inside the dome). In the end, Alexandria invaded Tural, fought a war against Tuliyollal and lost, and is now part of Tuliyollal's empire as a result.

It may be time to step away for a bit. When someone reaches the point of shouting about "unforgivable" things in a video game and declaring the writers incompetent because one personally doesn't like the story they wrote, that sounds like a good sign it's a healthy move to detach oneself.

This might be an unpopular opinion, but I think it's better if we drop these philosophical themes and just have a story being action-driven and entertaining without digging deep into the morale & understanding holes.

[Valkyrie-Veil]

This might be an unpopular opinion, but I think it's better if we drop these philosophical themes and just have a story being action-driven and entertaining without digging deep into the morale & understanding holes.

It sounds like you want something that isn’t an RPG.

[Striker44]

If they are just programs then most of the second half of dawntrail is just roleplaying with chatbots...

I'd say more like roleplaying with Skynet, given that these particular chatbots have the ability to commit mass murder in order to get the aether they need to keep going...

[Eyrilona]

I'd say more like roleplaying with Skynet, given that these particular chatbots have the ability to commit mass murder in order to get the aether they need to keep going...

None of the Endless that we kill has any power at all. The only one remotely able to affect out physical world is Cahciua and she has one measly non-combat drone. None of them has any hostile intent towards us either, the only thing driving that is the meddling that Preservation has done to override Sphene's free will as the system's 'control unit', saddling her with an absolute need to do anything and everything to keep a flawed system going.

Also, if we remain consistent in the view on what is and is not alive and/or worthy of equal right to life, as built up through the entirety of SB, ShB and EW, then there was no question that these memory constructs formed a living society, just not as we know it. So I am going to make the following somewhat odd statement.. while you could argue iRL whether or not the Endless were alive and therefore whether or not what happened was genocide, within the specific context of Final Fantasy XIV, this was indeed genocide, because the game's own lore in the previous expansions had already established an in-lore threshold for treating alternative forms of existence as alive, one that the Endless were well within. You can only argue moral relativism from an iRL point of view, if the setting of the game defaults to iRL viewpoints -- but in this case, the setting already had its own rules, and by those, yes it was a genocide.

[Rin_Sato]

None of the Endless that we kill has any power at all. The only one remotely able to affect out physical world is Cahciua and she has one measly non-combat drone. None of them has any hostile intent towards us either, the only thing driving that is the meddling that Preservation has done to override Sphene's free will as the system's 'control unit', saddling her with an absolute need to do anything and everything to keep a flawed system going.

Also, if we remain consistent in the view on what is and is not alive and/or worthy of equal right to life, as built up through the entirety of SB, ShB and EW, then there was no question that these memory constructs formed a living society, just not as we know it. So I am going to make the following somewhat odd statement.. while you could argue iRL whether or not the Endless were alive and therefore whether or not what happened was genocide, within the specific context of Final Fantasy XIV, this was indeed genocide, because the game's own lore in the previous expansions had already established an in-lore threshold for treating alternative forms of existence as alive, one that the Endless were well within. You can only argue moral relativism from an iRL point of view, if the setting of the game defaults to iRL viewpoints -- but in this case, the setting already had its own rules, and by those, yes it was a genocide.

Agreed. I am certain many others have said the following before I have, too:

If they at least had rigorous debate to reach a conclusion, discussed it with the inhabitants and they all agreed to being shut down? Ok, that's their choice at that point.
The WoL gang takes the decision from them, nevermind even considering if the decision should be made.

For being an expansion about learning about new cultures and being open to their customs, the protagonists sure seemed hellbent on destroying and conquering foreign ones.
And before anyone replies "it wasn't their intention" or "with good intentions". Yeah they *coincidentally* killed most of their population (as they considered them to be alive). They *coincidentally* killed their beloved ruler. They *coincidentally* installed a puppet king. Colonial/imperial Europe/Britain would blush.

Further, the "chatbots" linger after the machines are shutdown fully autonomously, they just lack a power source to live longer (iirc). Come on, that's so obviously sapient, there's not a machine controlling them at that point, is there? Or is the next argument going to be necrotechnology?

[lolnotacat]

Pretty much, ChatBots that have been programmed with the memories of a previously living people to give the impression of life. I mean, Chatbots can seem sentient too if they have machine learning, right?

As someone who regularly trains chatbots for work, not really. The more chatbots are given something novel to deal with, the more (almost every time) they go off the rails trying to find something to cope with the unexpected information. I doubt bun mom previously had experience piloting a robot body to lead a revolution against a technocracy before she died.

If they at least had rigorous debate to reach a conclusion, discussed it with the inhabitants and they all agreed to being shut down? Ok, that's their choice at that point.

I have a feeling this is the direction they originally wanted to go, but it was too heavy for our "vacation" expac and Hiroi doesn't have the chops to write anything nuanced with any sort of intellectual debate.