[SPOILERS] Dawntrail should get an ARR-style retcon in the post-MSQ

[Connor]

I have not seen many people discussing the true implications of what Wuk Lamat has done by the end of the MSQ: Wuk Lamat effectively committed a genocide on the Endless (the Alexandrian ruling class), and then installed a puppet proxy king in the form of Gulool Ja (a non-native). They even emphasize this by stating Wuk Lamat will be there to "guide" the literal baby in his role as king. Wuk Lamat killed the leaders of Alexandria and is now in control of it, she conquered

Your problem is assuming Wuk Lamat had enough brain cells to rub together to conceptualise any of this. If anything like 99.99% of what she done in Dawntrail was reacting without thinking which is pretty much her character anyway lol. Furthermore, again I don’t even think Lamat is smart enough to conceptualise the idea of colonising Alexandria lol; she isn’t going to extent any sort of ‘control’ over them anyway besides giving them whatever help they need?

Also maybe it’s harsh but frankly I still do not see how you can ‘genocide’ computer programs, no matter how realistic they are. I mean the souls are all released back into the aetherial sea right? We’ve literally done the exact opposite of a genocide by turning the terminals off because those souls will go on to create new life. If we’d done nothing they’d still be trapped in Living Memory being used to fuel a projection of someone that isn’t even them anyway.

Stealing people’s literal souls and using them to try and cope with grief seems just as unforgivable to me. If the dead can live on through memories does it really matter if a machine is projecting a manifestation of those memories? Or is it enough for them to live on in our memories ; in that way they never truly leave us. kinda thought that was the entire point of the storyline but I guess it was about murder lol

[Rin_Sato]

Also maybe it’s harsh but frankly I still do not see how you can ‘genocide’ computer programs, no matter how realistic they are. I mean the souls are all released back into the aetherial sea right? We’ve literally done the exact opposite of a genocide by turning the terminals off because those souls will go on to create new life. If we’d done nothing they’d still be trapped in Living Memory being used to fuel a projection of someone that isn’t even them anyway.

Stealing people’s literal souls and using them to try and cope with grief seems just as unforgivable to me. If the dead can live on through memories does it really matter if a machine is projecting a manifestation of those memories? Or is it enough for them to live on in our memories ; in that way they never truly leave us. kinda thought that was the entire point of the storyline but I guess it was about murder lol

If they are just programs then most of the second half of dawntrail is just roleplaying with chatbots...

[Striker44]

If they are just programs then most of the second half of dawntrail is just roleplaying with chatbots...

I'd say more like roleplaying with Skynet, given that these particular chatbots have the ability to commit mass murder in order to get the aether they need to keep going...

[Eyrilona]

I'd say more like roleplaying with Skynet, given that these particular chatbots have the ability to commit mass murder in order to get the aether they need to keep going...

None of the Endless that we kill has any power at all. The only one remotely able to affect out physical world is Cahciua and she has one measly non-combat drone. None of them has any hostile intent towards us either, the only thing driving that is the meddling that Preservation has done to override Sphene's free will as the system's 'control unit', saddling her with an absolute need to do anything and everything to keep a flawed system going.

Also, if we remain consistent in the view on what is and is not alive and/or worthy of equal right to life, as built up through the entirety of SB, ShB and EW, then there was no question that these memory constructs formed a living society, just not as we know it. So I am going to make the following somewhat odd statement.. while you could argue iRL whether or not the Endless were alive and therefore whether or not what happened was genocide, within the specific context of Final Fantasy XIV, this was indeed genocide, because the game's own lore in the previous expansions had already established an in-lore threshold for treating alternative forms of existence as alive, one that the Endless were well within. You can only argue moral relativism from an iRL point of view, if the setting of the game defaults to iRL viewpoints -- but in this case, the setting already had its own rules, and by those, yes it was a genocide.

[Rin_Sato]

None of the Endless that we kill has any power at all. The only one remotely able to affect out physical world is Cahciua and she has one measly non-combat drone. None of them has any hostile intent towards us either, the only thing driving that is the meddling that Preservation has done to override Sphene's free will as the system's 'control unit', saddling her with an absolute need to do anything and everything to keep a flawed system going.

Also, if we remain consistent in the view on what is and is not alive and/or worthy of equal right to life, as built up through the entirety of SB, ShB and EW, then there was no question that these memory constructs formed a living society, just not as we know it. So I am going to make the following somewhat odd statement.. while you could argue iRL whether or not the Endless were alive and therefore whether or not what happened was genocide, within the specific context of Final Fantasy XIV, this was indeed genocide, because the game's own lore in the previous expansions had already established an in-lore threshold for treating alternative forms of existence as alive, one that the Endless were well within. You can only argue moral relativism from an iRL point of view, if the setting of the game defaults to iRL viewpoints -- but in this case, the setting already had its own rules, and by those, yes it was a genocide.

Agreed. I am certain many others have said the following before I have, too:

If they at least had rigorous debate to reach a conclusion, discussed it with the inhabitants and they all agreed to being shut down? Ok, that's their choice at that point.
The WoL gang takes the decision from them, nevermind even considering if the decision should be made.

For being an expansion about learning about new cultures and being open to their customs, the protagonists sure seemed hellbent on destroying and conquering foreign ones.
And before anyone replies "it wasn't their intention" or "with good intentions". Yeah they *coincidentally* killed most of their population (as they considered them to be alive). They *coincidentally* killed their beloved ruler. They *coincidentally* installed a puppet king. Colonial/imperial Europe/Britain would blush.

Further, the "chatbots" linger after the machines are shutdown fully autonomously, they just lack a power source to live longer (iirc). Come on, that's so obviously sapient, there's not a machine controlling them at that point, is there? Or is the next argument going to be necrotechnology?