Why Erenville succeeded as a character where others did not

[LilimoLimomo]

I don't understand why you would condemn Wuk Lamat for backing up her ideal of mutual coexistence and peace by defending people who'd be out to kill her from a beast that attacked them without warning.

I think you're misunderstanding me, to the extent that I'd like to ask that you give my post a re-read. Because I don't condemn Wuk Lamat, I simply cite that story beat as an example of a time when the narrative values the lives of "people" as being more important than "non-people".

I never got this impression. The game makes no bones about how you sometimes have to defend your ideals and the people you love with violence. We had to kill Nidhogg and Thordan in order to prevent them from perpetuating the Dragonsong War and end the status quo that will keep the battle raging forever. But it never calls anyone more inherently worthy of living than the other.

With respect, you're talking about self-defense when the examples I provided don't touch on that topic; the examples I start with are about using animals as resources.

Because if we considered animals to be just as worthy of living as humans, then we would not kill 3 animals (that were just peacefully living their lives) in order to make the medicine that saves a single human. And yet this is a thing we do in quests. To kill 3 to save 1 requires that the 1 be considered more valuable than the sum of the 3. We don't have to explicitly say that animals are of lesser value, because our actions clearly demonstrate it.

But we're not going to roll over and let the eagle kill us because we also have a right to live and it's in our rights to defend ourselves.

And yet this highlights more disparity in the rights that are afforded to different kinds of living beings. When dangerous animals wander too close to our townships, it's not uncommon for us to get quests to end their lives. We feel that we have the right to defend our homes and keep them safe. Okay, fair enough. But we never extend that right to animals. On the contrary, we regularly wander into their homes, and when they try to defend their home and keep it safe, we slay them. We expect our homes to not be intruded upon, and yet we intrude upon the homes of others and kill them when they dare to defend it. That's a very blatant double-standard...but it's one we don't generally think about because our idealogy (both in real life and in the game) is that animals deserve fewer rights — among those, the right to life — than humans.

But at no point do the Scions consider the Endless "not people".

I never said anything about whether the Scions did or didn't consider the Endless people; and whether they do or not doesn't impact the idea that whether we acknowledge it or not, we are always making judgments on what is alive and what is people.

[Dikatis]

I think you're misunderstanding me, to the extent that I'd like to ask that you give my post a re-read. Because I don't condemn Wuk Lamat, I simply cite that story beat as an example of a time when the narrative values the lives of "people" as being more important than "non-people".

I mean, yeah. It's a double-standard. But at the same time, what about it? The alternative is letting a wild animal do as they please, which can lead to a great deal of casualties. It's unfortunate, but people tend to value other people more than animals, whether it's using them for their meat, to earn a living, or to make medicine. To live is to die and to kill. It's just easier to do that to animals than other people because they don't talk or think like we do. But I don't really see how it pertains to the topic of the thread since, again, this topic came up because people are debating the moral quandary of the Endless.

[LilimoLimomo]

I mean, yeah. It's a double-standard. But at the same time, what about it?....But I don't really see how it pertains to the topic of the thread since, again, this topic came up because people are debating the moral quandary of the Endless.

Let me try to express the connective tissue a bit more clearly. I'm going to be pretty methodical, as I want to try to make sure I show my work and don't skip any steps.

When you see a boar, you judge it to be an animal. When you see a Midlander, you judge it to be a person. You treat these two things differently based on that judgment.

Assuming you aren't simply operating on habit or instinct, you probably have reasons for why you judge a boar to be an animal while you judge a Midlander to be a person. They are similar in ways, but they are also different in ways, and you have identified some of those differences to be meaningful enough to warrant a difference in judgment (which includes a difference in rights and treatment).

And of course, there are other labels you can apply via judgment as well. A flower is a plant, which is a living thing with less rights than an animal. A rock on the ground is an object, which has even fewer rights than a plant. A robot...what do we judge a robot as? It seems to depend on certain factors...

So, what does this have to do with the Endless?

The Endless are a new thing to us. So what should we judge them to be? Are they a person? Are they an animal? Are they even alive?

As readers of this fictional story, we're going to be taking into consideration the things we learn about the Endless to help us decide what judgment feels appropriate. The process is much the same as with the boar and the Midlander, it's just that we're not accustomed to doing it with the Endless.*

So when Oolong says "people passing judgement on others and their lives for their own selfish benefit are the bad guys", they seem to be overlooking the fact that they have already judged the Endless. For the Endless to deserve better treatment than an animal or a rock suggests that Oolong has already judged the Endless to be something akin to "people". This is the most important judgment in the entire process, and it is not being taken into consideration.

And we need to take it into consideration if we want to have a constructive dialogue, because it's fundamental to the discussions of the Endless. When readers of Dawntrail discuss the Endless, a major source of disagreement comes from the fact that different readers have judged the Endless to warrant different classifications. Some feel they are robots, some feel they are people, some feel they are more akin to ghosts, etc. And this difference of interpretation seems to be the focus of the majority of the discussion on the Endless. As long as we can discuss it constructively, that's great.

But when we simply assume our judgment is right and dismiss those of others, or if we fail to even realize that all of us are judging the Endless, then we won't be able to have a productive discussion.


*And notably, the characters in the story are going through the same process, and it's possible that they'll come to different conclusions than we do due to the subjective nature of this judgment.

[Dikatis]

But when we simply assume our judgment is right and dismiss those of others, or if we fail to even realize that all of us are judging the Endless, then we won't be able to have a productive discussion.

My issue is that discussion of the Endless is not the point of this thread. The original post was this:

I'm dropping this in the Lore category for multiple reasons, but primarily because it speaks to how Erenville and a few other MSQ characters were introduced and handled correctly in the storyline and sidequests over the various expansions.

Yoshi P apparently expressed the dev team's concerns over introducing new characters, versus keeping the old cast around.

We're not bound to immediately hate new characters! But I think they need to be introduced briefly, cycled out of MSQ, and left to cook a bit before being thrust into the spotlight again.

Characters that were introduced EARLY and then got turned into MSQ companions later that we love a bunch:

• Krile was name dropped by Minfilia during a linkshell call because of the disappearance of the Isle of Val in base ARR or early 2.X if I remember right.
• Yugiri was introduced during the ARR 2.X series but did not get her time to shine until Stormblood.
• The Warriors of Darkness were introduced in the 3.X series but did not get their time to shine until Shadowbringers. We love Ardbert!
• Erenville was introduced during Endwalker MSQ very briefly. We've had two and a half years to be intrigued by him.

My recommendation to Yoshi P, the development team, and the writing team, is to give us a brief introduction to a new character as early as possible in MSQ (NOT side content... don't make another mistake like G'raha - I love him but forcing new players to do CT was a ham fisted solution to that problem) before making them become a full time companion or the "main star" of their own expansion.

For example, a character that I'm genuinely intrigued by and would like to know more about that was only barely mentioned in MSQ so far is.... Shale. 10/10 character design, I'm guessing she's Ysayle's soul shard companion, and I'd like to get to know her better. (Make her the star of 8.0 as a hacker queen and it's justified IMO /s)

Any yet somehow it's circled back around to discussing the Endless just as 90% of the discussion in the past 4 years has been whether or not Venat's judgment was sound and if she should be condemned for causing the Sundering. This is complete and utter thread derailment. If you want to discuss the Endless, fine. Just do it in another thread.

[Banggugyangu]

That's probably because of the fact that the only time Erenville did anything the whole expansion was when he figured out his mother was an Endless.

[LilimoLimomo]

My issue is that discussion of the Endless is not the point of this thread. The original post was this:

Any yet somehow it's circled back around to discussing the Endless just as 90% of the discussion in the past 4 years has been whether or not Venat's judgment was sound and if she should be condemned for causing the Sundering. This is complete and utter thread derailment. If you want to discuss the Endless, fine. Just do it in another thread.

If you want to discuss whether Erenville's story was handled well, you're going to have to talk about his story.

If you're going to talk about his story, you're going to have to talk about Cahciua.

If you're going to talk about Cahciua, you're going to have to talk about the Endless.

Ergo, any reader's interpretation of Erenville's story will be reliant upon their interpretation of the Endless, which makes it quite understandable that the issue organically came up in the course of this thread.

[Dikatis]

If you want to discuss whether Erenville's story was handled well, you're going to have to talk about his story.

But you're not talking about this in relation to Erenville. You're talking in circles around a tangent about the value of non-human lives versus human lives without a single mention of Erenville in your previous three responses. There's plenty to criticize about the use of the characters, but going off on this tangent isn't productive to the discussion about the usage of the characters in the expansion. You are expositing for the sake of expositing while derailing the thread with your constant talk about the Endless.

I too was disappointed in the lack of screentime Krile and Erenville got despite all the marketing centered around them and I don't think he was inherently more or less successful of a character than Krile or Wuk Lamat. I also would have liked more scenes between WoL and Krile or WoL and Erenville without Wuk Lamat present. Not because I dislike Wuk Lamat, far from it, but because I think there's a lot that could've been explored. Krile faced feelings of ineptitude despite her accomplishments and talents because she couldn't keep up with the other Scions as a combatant and in one instance was captured and used to empower both Zenos and Krile. The story could have easily spent some time exploring how Krile is dealing with these feelings while wanting to know more about the secrets Galuf kept and never had the time to reveal to her. We could have easily checked in on her because she is definitely brave but has not seen the same kinds of combat the rest of the Scions have. She could've had a reaction similar to Alphinaud's by Gorgagne's Mills where he killed a bear for the first time and had to come to grips with him taking a life in the face of his pacifistic upbringing. She could have expressed exhiliration or horror while wondering about how her experiences compared to her father's.

As for Erenville, I liked the story's portrayal of his fraught, but still loving relationship with his mother. There is clearly distance between them despite still loving one another, what with Cahciua's insistence on using his birth name and Erenville referring to her repeatedly as his "mentor" rather than his "mother". Him clamming up and bottling up his feelings when he learned about Cahciua's death and conversion into one of the Endless was compelling for me since I had a similar reaction when I learned about a family member's terminal cancer diagnosis. I would've liked to learn more about them too, especially since Cahciua apparently wasn't privy to Gulool Ja Ja's and Galuf's discovery of the gate to Living Memory. But I also would've liked more unpacking of his past in Tural and how he and Wuk Lamat met too. They have a vitriolic best friends relationship and I do think he serves as a good foil to him. But a little more character conflict between them about her choices could have been neat.

[Lyth]

I'm guessing you know you're being hyperbolic. But if you truly think that, I'll ask you to provide a line-by-line explanation of how Viera hats are an important aspect of discussing Erenville's story.

The proof of this was both obvious and trivial, so it was previously omitted. But since you asked:

• If you're going to talk about Erenville's story, you're going to have to talk about Erenville and Cahciua.
• If you're going to talk about Erenville and Cahciua, you're going to have to talk about the Viera.
• If you're going to talk about Viera, you're going to have to talk about the limited hat options that the Viera have access to.

Ergo, any reader's interpretation of Erenville's story will be reliant upon a discussion of Viera hats. ∴, this is now a Viera hat thread. □/QED/gg (Yes, modern mathematicians optionally conclude their proofs with gg).

As for Erenville, I liked the story's portrayal of his fraught, but still loving relationship with his mother. There is clearly distance between them despite still loving one another, what with Cahciua's insistence on using his birth name and Erenville referring to her repeatedly as his "mentor" rather than his "mother". Him clamming up and bottling up his feelings when he learned about Cahciua's death and conversion into one of the Endless was compelling for me since I had a similar reaction when I learned about a family member's terminal cancer diagnosis. I would've liked to learn more about them too, especially since Cahciua apparently wasn't privy to Gulool Ja Ja's and Galuf's discovery of the gate to Living Memory. But I also would've liked more unpacking of his past in Tural and how he and Wuk Lamat met too. They have a vitriolic best friends relationship and I do think he serves as a good foil to him. But a little more character conflict between them about her choices could have been neat.

I got this feeling as well, and I think that part of their relationship dynamic comes out of watching an introvert deal with his very extroverted mother. I don't think that it's necessarily negative, and I've seen a suggestion that this may be a localization nuance around whether you portray that interaction as familiarity or irritation.

[Banggugyangu]

But you're not talking about this in relation to Erenville. You're talking in circles around a tangent about the value of non-human lives versus human lives without a single mention of Erenville in your previous three responses. There's plenty to criticize about the use of the characters, but going off on this tangent isn't productive to the discussion about the usage of the characters in the expansion. You are expositing for the sake of expositing while derailing the thread with your constant talk about the Endless.

Do you see no value in positing on a topic that directly relates to a character without mentioning said character for some time? The moral implications of the very existence of the Endless, as well as many other aspects, are directly related to Erenville's character. Speaking in length about said moral implications, regardless of the mentioning of said character, is not tangential. So long as the topic directly relates to the character, mention of the character is not necessary for relevance.

[LilimoLimomo]

But you're not talking about this in relation to Erenville. You're talking in circles around a tangent about the value of non-human lives versus human lives without a single mention of Erenville in your previous three responses. There's plenty to criticize about the use of the characters, but going off on this tangent isn't productive to the discussion about the usage of the characters in the expansion. You are expositing for the sake of expositing while derailing the thread with your constant talk about the Endless.

Any conversation about the Endless will always impact Erenville's story. If that's not enough for you personally, that's fine; you're allowed to have your preferences. But that in itself is a tangent, and you don't like tangents, so let's move past that and get to the bigger point:

If you truly dislike what you see as a tangent conversation, then man oh man, you've really been shooting yourself in the foot for the past 2 days.

This entire thread had been dormant for more than 24 hours before you chose to reply to it.

And instead of revitalizing the thread with a post containing your thoughts directly pertaining to Erenville's story, you decided to reply to me about the stuff I had been talking about. That stuff that didn't directly pertain to Erenville, making it the very stuff you are now complaining is derailing this thread.

You had seen my other posts in this thread, you had seen that I regularly reply to people who quote me, so you surely knew that there was a good chance I would reply to you, too...right?

All you had to do to end that tangent was to not engage me on the topic. But instead you did the one thing that nearly guaranteed it would continue.


I'll be honest: I've enjoyed our discussion over the past 2 days. I'm disappointed that you apparently haven't, as I'd like for such interactions to be mutually beneficial. And so while I'm without a doubt being critical of the actions you took, I hope you receive this as the constructive criticism it is intended as. I don't want a fight, and I don't want you to be unhappy. I genuinely hope this can help you to have a better forum experience.

Be the change you want to see in the world. In the context of the forums, I'd recommend spending your time cultivating the kinds of conversations you'd like to see, rather than replying to — and thus perpetuating — the ones you don't.

So if you don't want this tangent to thrive, stop feeding it.

Anyway, I hope that advice lands and ends up being at least mildly helpful, and regardless I wish you the best.

P.S. And to be absolutely clear: if you reply to this then I'll probably reply to you, so please take that into consideration.