Wow, Wuk Lamat is really single-handedly ruining the DT story...

[ZXN]

To answer unanswered question: The source of the problem is that the writers are absolute talentless amateurs and need to be replaced asap.

Exactly this. Hiroi is a talentless hack, genuinely one of the worst writers I've ever seen. Everything he touches turns to slop. If they don't swap out the writing team soon...I don't even want to think about it actually lol, the patches and DT were painful enough. The thought of the writing quality staying this poor is depressing.

I'll bite the bullet here and take the potential lashing: I don't think Hiroi and the other new writers are exactly "terrible". While some are new, like the people who did the Myths of the Realm alliance raid story, some have written the smaller side stuff like the Job/Role Quests and some other side quest things. Hiroi for example did the Pandaemonium series and also worked on the Return to Ivalice story and Bozja's story, and I believe also lead 6.1 and 6.2 at the very least for Endwalker's post-patch MSQ.

HOWEVER!...They currently are not MSQ quality writers.

Going from writing non-mandatory side stories/smaller-ish content to writing a story that has to carry a whole expansion/post expansion while also building up something for the future of the whole game is a BIG jump from what they are no doubt use to.

It seems pretty clear based on what has been written in the past by Hiroi and the new writers that the potential IS there. The problem is that he and the other new writing team just isn't ready yet to carry a whole expansion with their writing quality, and it shows given how massively split the Endwalker Post-Patch MSQ and Dawntrail's current MSQ have made players. Yes, Hiroi and the other new writers are only really going to learn through actual experience and trying things out along the way given the story is pretty much a blank slate with small things leftover, but if Yoshi-P, Ishiwaka, and Oda wanted to keep their "We'll just take a backseat and let Hiroi and the new writers do their own thing" approach going forward, then they need to immediately throw that mindset in the dumpster and oversee Hiroi and the new writers more carefully until they can get their footing with what they're putting out.

[honest_psycho]

I'll bite the bullet here and take the potential lashing: I don't think Hiroi and the other new writers are exactly "terrible". While some are new, like the people who did the Myths of the Realm alliance raid story, some have written the smaller side stuff like the Job/Role Quests and some other side quest things. Hiroi for example did the Pandaemonium series and also worked on the Return to Ivalice story and Bozja's story, and I believe also lead 6.1 and 6.2 at the very least for Endwalker's post-patch MSQ.

HOWEVER!...They currently are not MSQ quality writers.

Going from writing non-mandatory side stories/smaller-ish content to writing a story that has to carry a whole expansion/post expansion while also building up something for the future of the whole game is a BIG jump from what they are no doubt use to.

It seems pretty clear based on what has been written in the past by Hiroi and the new writers that the potential IS there. The problem is that he and the other new writing team just isn't ready yet to carry a whole expansion with their writing quality, and it shows given how massively split the Endwalker Post-Patch MSQ and Dawntrail's current MSQ have made players. Yes, Hiroi and the other new writers are only really going to learn through actual experience and trying things out along the way given the story is pretty much a blank slate with small things leftover, but if Yoshi-P, Ishiwaka, and Oda wanted to keep their "We'll just take a backseat and let Hiroi and the new writers do their own thing" approach going forward, then they need to immediately throw that mindset in the dumpster and oversee Hiroi and the new writers more carefully until they can get their footing with what they're putting out.

My brother in Hydelin, you can't be seriously considering giving these people a second chance.
There are so many blatant problems, even with the foundation of the worldbuiling that you cannot explain this away with in-experience.

To be fair, I wasn't really vibing with the stories of the raids you mentioned, and to be honest, it was side-content I didn't care much for.
I bet if I did an actual deep-dive into those stories, I can identifiy a lot of issues, that culminated in the absolute shitshow of Dawntrails MSQ.

So no, no way in hell I will give these people the benefit of the doubt. They need to go.
I don't care what they do, but I don't want them anywhere near the next MSQ.

[ZXN]

My brother in Hydelin, you can't be seriously considering giving these people a second chance.
There are so many blatant problems, even with the foundation of the worldbuiling that you cannot explain this away with in-experience.

To be fair, I wasn't really vibing with the stories of the raids you mentioned, and to be honest, it was side-content I didn't care much for.
I bet if I did an actual deep-dive into those stories, I can identifiy a lot of issues, that culminated in the absolute shitshow of Dawntrails MSQ.

So no, no way in hell I will give these people the benefit of the doubt. They need to go.
I don't care what they do, but I don't want them anywhere near the next MSQ.

Okay...then let's follow your line and go from there, and I'm going to go off the assumption that when you say "they need to go" you mean not fired, because the entire context changes based on that small detail.

They get rid of Hiroi and the current writing team, just like a few players have demanded. What then? What's the next step? Well that would be bringing back the Ishiakawa, Oda, and the previous writing team. Well that seems easy eno-wait...What do you mean they don't want to come back and do the MSQ again? Well alright, next plan: replace Hiroi and the current team with ANOTHER new team. That'll-What do you mean there isn't another team that has been trained and is ready?

What then?

Strong-arm Ishiwaka, Oda, and the old writers and give them the ultimatum of "Either you all do the MSQ story again or you're fired? Attempt to make another new team from scratch, throw them right on the MSQ and hope they don't give the same results? Do you go right for the throat and give Yoshi-P the boot for "not being prepared enough for this situation and making things this way?"

I am not trying to push your buttons, or troll you, or insult you, or make any excuses for the current team when I say what I am saying. Your anger and frustration at the current state of the story is understandable. Trust me: Dawntrail was filled with so many holes even Swiss cheese would be concerned for it and I have pointed out how fucking abysmal the story is. I am also sure Ishiwaka, Oda, and the old writers would absolutely come back if asked or if they felt they had no other choice. But while the anger for quite a few people is currently high on what we got, you also have to genuinely consider the possibility that there simply ISN'T a Plan B, or C, or D and onward that they can fall back on currently.

And as for a "second chance": this feels more like their third to me. Hiroi took over with the Endwalker patch quests, at least 6.1/.2 anyway, and I personally hated the Zero story. So to me: Dawntrail's patch MSQ is their third chance. If they fuck this up then three strikes you're out: into the dumpster.

[honest_psycho]

But while the anger for quite a few people is currently high on what we got, you also have to genuinely consider the possibility that there simply ISN'T a Plan B, or C, or D and onward that they can fall back on currently.[/B]

If this is true and they really don't have a plan B than the game is cooked and some higher ups in Squares management have to resin too.

If the current writers are really the only ones available, then they need WAY more oversight.
One of the reasons DT turned out like it did is that Yoshi-P and other important people were leeched to work on FF16, a cheap game-of-thrones-rippoff hiding behind kaijuu spectacle.
That's why he couldn't have a closer look to the writing.

But to be clear, I very much prefer for Hiroi and his colleages to be FIRED.
This much incompetence is unacceptable and need to have consequences.

[lolnotacat]

But to be clear, I very much prefer for Hiroi and his colleages to be FIRED.
This much incompetence is unacceptable and need to have consequences.

That's the thing. If Hiroi put out some good siqequest stuff, then sure, just toss him back in the sidequest dungeon and never let him back out. But even all his sidequest stuff was mediocre. The fact he was promoted makes me think it's some sort of internal Squaresoft politics where it was essentially "his turn" (I've read that's not uncommon at Japanese workplaces) because Ishikawa was promoted. I don't think he did anything that was universally loved like Ishikawa's Alchemist and Dark Knight quests.

If they don't have someone else to take over for him, and if Ishikawa doesn't wanna come back to do the MSQ, then they desperately need to look externally.

[ZXN]

If this is true and they really don't have a plan B than the game is cooked and some higher ups in Squares management have to resin too.

If the current writers are really the only ones available, then they need WAY more oversight.
One of the reasons DT turned out like it did is that Yoshi-P and other important people were leeched to work on FF16, a cheap game-of-thrones-rippoff hiding behind kaijuu spectacle.
That's why he couldn't have a closer look to the writing.

But to be clear, I very much prefer for Hiroi and his colleages to be FIRED.
This much incompetence is unacceptable and need to have consequences.

While I personally think them getting fired might be a bit extreme, I will say if the post-patch MSQ for Dawntrail doesn't deliver SOMETHING storywise to make up for whatever the hell the 7.0 MSQ was, even if they are overseen during the post-patch MSQ more closely [as long as Yoshi-P was serious about taking the feedback into account and fixing things anyway], then Hiroi and the new team should indeed be knocked back down to side-quest/side-story makers since they just simply don't have what it takes to carry a MSQ level story.

Sure some might say "If Dawntrail's post MSQ wasn't good then it'll get better in 8.0! Don't be such a downer!" but...WoW players have played with that "It'll get better next expansion" mindset for literal years and that mindset made so many players miserable. Nobody will enjoy the "throw things at the wall and see what sticks" mentality if it takes until 8.X, 9.0, 9.X, or even 10.0+ for Hiroi and the new blood to cook something up that actually finally "sticks", since that means literal years of threads like this one popping up with constant back and forths day after day after day. Sure we'll all be happy when we "get another Shadowbringers" again, but it won't be fun if it takes 6-8+ years to get to that point again.

Regardless of what happens though: whatever is going on internally for building up writers needs a BIG boost because eventually it WILL reach a point where writers like Ishikawa and Oda will just flat out not want to do it anymore or just retire, and it'll be rough not having a group and/or specific person properly prepared to pass on the torch to continue if they cannot trust the new blood to handle it.

[honest_psycho]

Sure some might say "If Dawntrail's post MSQ wasn't good then it'll get better in 8.0! Don't be such a downer!" but...WoW players have played with that "It'll get better next expansion" mindset for literal years and that mindset made so many players miserable.

I'm just scared man, I don't know where to go if FF14 goes the same road as WoW or Pokemon (Sword/Shield), Genshin peaked with Sumeru and is becoming more and more of a snoozefest.
I tried Guildwars2 but it needed way more visual polish and actual controllersupport (not judging if its good or bad, mind you).

If I could make a wish, I would wish for Ryushiki07 (author of Higurashi/Umineko) to write the next expac.
But alas, we're stuck with Wookie and her sycophants.

[ZXN]

I'm just scared man, I don't know where to go if FF14 goes the same road as WoW or Pokemon (Sword/Shield), Genshin peaked with Sumeru and is becoming more and more of a snoozefest.
I tried Guildwars2 but it needed way more visual polish and actual controllersupport (not judging if its good or bad, mind you).

If I could make a wish, I would wish for Ryushiki07 (author of Higurashi/Umineko) to write the next expac.
But alas, we're stuck with Wookie and her sycophants.

And you're right to be concerned. While I am sure Endwalker had it's fair share of back and forth, I don't recall said discourse being this bad. Hell: we're barely 2 months into Dawntrail and we already have a thread with 300 pages and it's only going to keep increasing as the patches release depending on what they do with the story and characters. That should be a wake-up call to the devs/writers, if they have even viewed this thread along with the other threads, that something has to change, or at the very least they need to take their "We'll fix and modify things through the patches from the feedback we get" seriously like they said they would. We simply won't know for sure until the patches release, and even then, we won't know how long until we see changes, if any.

If I remember correctly they mentioned that the voices are normally recorded about 6-9+ months in advance. So theoretically: we could see absolutely zero changes to the overall story plan for 2-3 whole patches if they prepared everything that far in advance. Sure they might be able to do a "rush order" of sorts and re-record lines, but that completely depends on the characters they plan to have speaking / if their VA is even available, plus there is the possibility the voice actors just won't re-record their stuff or voice anything period due to the SAG-AFTRA video game strike.

Prime example: Sena, Wuk Lamat's VA, is taking part in the strike. If she has a contract through the patches then she can work just fine. But what if she doesn't? Is she going to refuse to come back and voice Wuk? What if she does have a contract, but still refuses in support of the strike? What if the English VA's for Koana, Bakool, and any of the other characters also refuse? What then? Replace the English VA's for ones that can mimic their voices good enough? Potentially destroy the game in an instant by going the route of AI voices? Just not have Wuk / Koana / Bakool / Etc not speak and potentially screw over the German/French/Japanese voice actors/actresses because English ones went "Nah, we ain't doing it, so deal with it?"

These patches are a MUCH more slippery slope then I think a lot of people realize right now and these next two years are pretty much a minefield for Yoshi-P and the other devs to navigate without blowing themselves to smithereens.

[Zackneifein]

.WoW players have played with that "It'll get better next expansion" mindset for literal years

Funny enough from what I have heard from some friends playing WoW, the best expansion since probably Legion, with good storytelling leaning to what FFXIV was celebrated for (with a player character more relevant in the story for example) is released the same year that the worst FFXIV expansion (by my standard and what we can see on reviews / forums & co).

[sylphlands]

HOWEVER!...They currently are not MSQ quality writers.

Going from writing non-mandatory side stories/smaller-ish content to writing a story that has to carry a whole expansion/post expansion while also building up something for the future of the whole game is a BIG jump from what they are no doubt use to.

That's fair! I think Hiroi was woefully unprepared to write an entire expansion. I have issues with...most of his writing, unfortunately, except for the SHB caster role quest. That was a random high point for him and I genuinely enjoyed that quest. (I actually found out after the fact that he wrote it, which really shocked me lol.) I had a great time in Pandae even if there were some writing decisions that I thought could have been better.

It makes me wonder why he was chosen to do an entire expac right on the heels of Endwalker, especially with such little experience writing something so big. It seems like an extremely risky move for the team to take.