Stormblood Scholar could be back in 8.0

[Supersnow845]

Up until your last line my entire interpretation of your post was basically “this is just reading to me like SGE is the problem for having no flux capacity and then you basically all just said it at the end

SGE is too static because any amount of addersgall beyond what’s needed to clear is just wasted healing the SGE can’t weaponise, I don’t see that as a SCH problem I see that as a SGE problem, sure there are situations where a SCH overuses energy drain but that doesn’t make the skill actually problematic

Any healing SGE does beyond the max needed is just wasted, SCH can dump it off as excess damage, to me that reads that SGE is the badly designed one

[BabyYoda]

Up until your last line my entire interpretation of your post was basically “this is just reading to me like SGE is the problem for having no flux capacity and then you basically all just said it at the end

SGE is too static because any amount of addersgall beyond what’s needed to clear is just wasted healing the SGE can’t weaponise, I don’t see that as a SCH problem I see that as a SGE problem, sure there are situations where a SCH overuses energy drain but that doesn’t make the skill actually problematic

Any healing SGE does beyond the max needed is just wasted, SCH can dump it off as excess damage, to me that reads that SGE is the badly designed one

Imagine of we have old kit dark knight.. but you consume 3% of your health to do 3% extra damage, it is underwhelming and doesn't reflect any meaningful change.
And how you balance dark knight now to other tanks?
Either you give all tanks same kind of skill or you remove this mechanic completely.

Keeping it will cause balance issue or homenization issue

[Supersnow845]

Imagine of we have old kit dark knight.. but you consume 3% of your health to do 3% extra damage, it is underwhelming and doesn't reflect any meaningful change.
And how you balance dark knight now to other tanks?
Either you give all tanks same kind of skill or you remove this mechanic completely.

Keeping it will cause balance issue or homenization issue

Except there is no balance issue with ED right now because no matter how many ED’s SCH use they do more damage than SGE.

You could entirely delete ED right now and it still wouldn’t change the current balance

If SCH weaponising ED actually meaningfully Tipped balance one way or another you may have a point, but even in that case you could also fix it in the other direction by not making SGE’s damage profile so static

Since healing requirements scale with gear there is always going to be an element of needing to heal this week but not next week, if you can’t flux your healing to damage profile you end up just wasting heals, and that’s what SGE is, a healer that excels in wasting heals

[BabyYoda]

Except there is no balance issue with ED right now because no matter how many ED’s SCH use they do more damage than SGE.

You could entirely delete ED right now and it still wouldn’t change the current balance

If SCH weaponising ED actually meaningfully Tipped balance one way or another you may have a point, but even in that case you could also fix it in the other direction by not making SGE’s damage profile so static

Since healing requirements scale with gear there is always going to be an element of needing to heal this week but not next week, if you can’t flux your healing to damage profile you end up just wasting heals, and that’s what SGE is, a healer that excels in wasting heals

And now we have to give ED to not only sage but to white mage and astrologian.. or we will be in balance hell or we just reduce the impact to the point where how currently ED do.

"How many ED do I have to use to balance Scholar damage to other healers" is a good question.. this question is showing how this can't be fun and balance at the same time

[Sylvain]

And now we have to give ED to not only sage but to white mage and astrologian.. or we will be in balance hell or we just reduce the impact to the point where how currently ED do.

WHM already has lilies and assize. And yes Lilies can be dumped for extra dps by either doing it while the boss is not here. During movement as or just to have a blood lilly ready at the two minute mark for the burst window.
Assize also poses the problem of either you never delay it and, most likely unless in a very organised group, waste the heal, or delay it and get the heal but loose the damage. It's a "dps OR heal" unless you manage to have all of them heal.

AST has Earthly Star which kind of has the same issue than Assize, except that you have a 10s margin of error. But that's really all the same thing.

"How many ED do I have to use to balance Scholar damage to other healers" is a good question.. this question is showing how this can't be fun and balance at the same time

The issue is that even if ED were to be removed there'd be other point of contention.
Now it's ED, then it's RuinII being trashed compared to Toxikon, then it is Phylosophia having more passive regen than Seraphism, then it is something else, and something else, and something else, until they're the exact same carbon copy so we can complain that every job is the same.

[Tunda]

WHM already has lilies and assize. And yes Lilies can be dumped for extra dps by either doing it while the boss is not here. During movement as or just to have a blood lilly ready at the two minute mark for the burst window.
Assize also poses the problem of either you never delay it and, most likely unless in a very organised group, waste the heal, or delay it and get the heal but loose the damage. It's a "dps OR heal" unless you manage to have all of them heal.

AST has Earthly Star which kind of has the same issue than Assize, except that you have a 10s margin of error. But that's really all the same thing.


The issue is that even if ED were to be removed there'd be other point of contention.
Now it's ED, then it's RuinII being trashed compared to Toxikon, then it is Phylosophia having more passive regen than Seraphism, then it is something else, and something else, and something else, until they're the exact same carbon copy so we can complain that every job is the same.

Lilly system is different as it give you 1 hard hitting attack every 3 specific healing GCD.. It will not let you choose between 2 different routes

Assize is a oGCD which do both as it is good with no problem in the design (even though I don't like oGCD spells that do damage with healers).. It will not let you choose between 2 different routes

Earthly Star is same as Assize.

Phylosophia is 180s spell which is fine to have and It will not let you choose between 2 different routes

RuinII being trashed compared to Toxikon because RuinII is trash .. giving people a bad option then you call it Non-Homogenized design will not work.

"Phylosophia having more passive regen than Seraphism" thats why they reduce SGE damage.. but it is a fair trade as It will not let you choose between 2 different routes.

the solution of how to make healers different is how they interact with their own heals making them unique in a gameplay perspective not as what we see now (shield/pure) healers

[Sylvain]

Lilly system is different as it give you 1 hard hitting attack every 3 specific healing GCD.. It will not let you choose between 2 different routes

Assize is a oGCD which do both as it is good with no problem in the design (even though I don't like oGCD spells that do damage with healers).. It will not let you choose between 2 different routes

Earthly Star is same as Assize.

that is where you're wrong

Whenever you use Assize on CD, you have two event which can unfold. You Heal AND damage, or you simply damage (because everyone is at 100%).
When you use the latter option, you decided to ignore the heal in purse of the damage. You could hold on assize until the next raid burster and use the skill so that it both heal and damage.
Because it has a short CD of 45s, depending on the killing time you can either delay it up to 44s cumulatively, or not at all to avoid loosing uses.
Unless it is only a few seconds (like the boss is currently casting a raidburster). Repetitive assize delay to get the healing (so that means, you choose the healing over the damage) can result in less assize per fight.
The same applies to Earthly Star except that the CD is longer (so more delay can be done before loosing one usage) and there's a 10s room. But it's still the same logic.

Everytime you use those abilities and they result in no healing (or excessive overhealing), you choose to damage over healing. Which is no different than SCH choosing an ED over an Indom.

Lillies can also be used in the same way. You can keep them solely for healing or use them as movement tool or simply burn them during downtime while the boss isn't here because 1 lilly = 1 glare.
And yes it is a dps gain to do that.

Everytime you assize, Earthly Star or Lilly whenever people are at 100% health you sacrifice healing potential for DPS.
This is no different than a SCH sacrificing a flux for ED.

One difference I give you is that Assize, Earthly Star and Lilly can do both healing AND damage, which ED can't.

But yet again, it's a false sens of choice. Because Assize, Earthly Star and Lilly shouldn't be used for damage if this results in a dead group in the exact same manner ED shouldn't be used if it result in you lacking options to keep the group alive.

People say "Assize should only be used for DPS", this is not true. Assize can 99.9% of the time exclusively be used for damage. But if for whatever reason you know that holding on assize to heal the next mechanic will make the difference between a wipe and a clear, then using assize for DPS would be the wrong choice. Your goal above all else is still to keep people alive. The same goes Earthly Star, Lilly and ED.

Assize/Earthly Star on CD, Lilly for movement/downtime and ED are the result of us having more tools than needed to heal.
Supersnow is right saying that Sage is poorly designed because it has no avenue to expend excess heal.

[Sylvain]

Up until your last line my entire interpretation of your post was basically “this is just reading to me like SGE is the problem for having no flux capacity and then you basically all just said it at the end

Well I do believe it's important to phrase things properly to be sure we're talking about the same thing.
However I didn't say "Sage is the problem", I said the asymetry is. And sure it comes from a single job but the problem could also be fixed by making Star and Assize do 0 damage and removing ED.
That would kill that optimisation but would at least solve the whole drama regarding ED usage.

SGE is too static because any amount of addersgall beyond what’s needed to clear is just wasted healing the SGE can’t weaponise, I don’t see that as a SCH problem I see that as a SGE problem, sure there are situations where a SCH overuses energy drain but that doesn’t make the skill actually problematic

Any healing SGE does beyond the max needed is just wasted, SCH can dump it off as excess damage, to me that reads that SGE is the badly designed one

It's a SCH problem because we compare scholar and sage together all the time.

If you make SCH damage based of 0 ED usage, the it should exceeds Sage by using ED, sage will complain, get a buff which would lead to Sage out performing 0 ED SCH, so you'd "have to" use ED, sparkling yet another bajillions threads about ED.

Sage not having ED is definitely, also, a SCH problem.

Or remove the choice and keeping the role in stable state.

There's no choice.
If you used ED instead of keeping them to heal, it is litterally the equivalent of throwing away your ogcd heal as any other healer and wonder why you can't heal.

ED's function is "once you're done with healing, dump the excess with that".
That's not a choice, Sage also does this by throwing Druochole to regen mp. It is the exact same thing, except that one does damage and one doesn't.

But you can't choose to do more damage. if you "choose" to make more damage at the expense of healing (and a real expense), people will die.

Do I have to choose between damage or healing.

You litterally do that every gcd