The death of savage raiding and SE's lack of action

[Havenchild]

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snip.

You both responded to a reply I made to someone else about the Healerstrike being ineffective (true lol)

And both tried to use numbers to justify how either A) a shortage exists or B) not that many healers actually are clearing and are just helping out, again as a response to me pointing out it was a fail.

Now suddenly when the large chunk of evidence we have does support that more healers are clearing compared to alot of other raid tiers, as far more players cleared week 1 than ever before, suddenly neither of you are referring to the healerstrike where my comments have always been about. Im not understanding why you are replying to me then as apparently you aren't disagreeing either.

So back to my point which you both have a hard time swallowing or following, the healerstrike was ineffective. More healers have cleared this tier and faster than before. Shortages have always existed, the healerstrike specifically hasn't really contributed any measureable decline in the presense of healers in PF.

That is seperate from Mr.Math's conclusion that the lack of healers overall in PF is exacerbated now that far more people have cleared.

[Supersnow845]

You both responded to a reply I made to someone else about the Healerstrike being ineffective (true lol)

And both tried to use numbers to justify how either A) a shortage exists or B) not that many healers actually are clearing and are just helping out, again as a response to me pointing out it was a fail.

Now suddenly when the large chunk of evidence we have does support that more healers are clearing compared to alot of other raid tiers as far more players are completing the tier suddenly neither of you are referring to the healerstrike where my comments have always been about. Im not understanding why you are replying to me then as apparently you aren't disagreeing either.

So back to my point which you both have a hard time swallowing or following, the healerstrike was ineffective. More healers have cleared this tier and faster than before. Shortages have always existed, the healerstrike specifically hasn't really contributed any measureable decline in the presense of healers in PF.

That is seperate from Mr.Math's conclusion that the lack of healers overall in PF is exasperated now that far more people have cleared.

You ever consider the fact that I was replying to a part of your comment that didn’t involve your mention of the healer strike

I opposed your weird use of anecdotes when you also tell other people they are meaningless and that an inbuilt healer shortage should be expected and not attempt be be corrected

I don’t care about whether you attach that to a failure of the healer strike or not. My point was the shortage is bad this tier and when you asked me to explain myself I did which caused to come up with a dumb nickname but never actually acknowledge my point

[Aravell]

Shortages have always existed

This is completely going against the reality that Yoshi P himself acknowledged a healer shortage just 2 tiers ago and also begged people to give healers a try.

Are you saying that somehow the healer population surged from a population low enough for the producer to speak up about it to a healthy sustainable population in less than 2 years? To the point that there's no longer a concern about it?

There's a lot of evidence that you're overlooking to try and make your view of reality to become real. Like I said before, your view may be true for your own narrow circle, but that doesn't make it a hard fact, and cherrypicking your data doesn't change that.

Edit: Not sure why you have to make everything about the healerstrike, but you do what you like.

[Havenchild]

You ever consider the fact that I was replying to a part of your comment that didn’t involve your mention of the healer strike

I opposed your weird use of anecdotes when you also tell other people they are meaningless and that an inbuilt healer shortage should be expected and not attempt be be corrected

I don’t care about whether you attach that to a failure of the healer strike or not. My point was the shortage is bad this tier and when you asked me to explain myself I did which caused to come up with a dumb nickname but never actually acknowledge my point

Mr.Math, I apologize I didn't give your comment the attention you wanted. Your point had no real bearing on the overall comment I made about the healerstrike being ineffective so you were decisively ignored since you can't stay on topic. If you are going to respond to my point about the healerstrike working specifically, I am waiting for you to provide evidence of that. Otherwise, it makes no sense for you to respond to a comment that had to deal with the healerstrike and was the response to someone who was referring to the healerstrike.

Your failure to follow context is still not my problem however.

[Supersnow845]

Mr.Math, I apologize I didn't give your comment the attention you wanted. Your point had no real bearing on the overall comment I made about the healerstrike being ineffective so you were decisively ignored since you can't stay on topic. If you are going to respond to my point about the healerstrike working specifically, I am waiting for you to provide evidence of that. Otherwise, it makes no sense for you to respond to a comment that had to deal with the healerstrike and was the response to someone who was referring to the healerstrike.

Your failure to follow context is still not my problem however.

Accuses people of being unable to stay on topic

Literally deflects to a point nobody besides themselves is making for 10 comments acting like everyone else is making the same point then when everyone agrees nobody is making that point besides you suddenly pivots to “well don’t reply to me if you aren’t making that point” despite arguing for said 10 posts as if anyone was actually making that point

Your choice of argument style is certainly………interesting. Being unable to pivot in a discussion isn’t a strength in an argument

Have a nice day this obviously isn’t going anywhere

[Jojoya]

The reverse argument is also true though. The design team can create the best fight for healing possible and it would still be garbage because healers are designed like garbage

So then what is good job healer design?

Are there other MMOs players can point to and say their healer job design is what a healer job should be and XYZ is why?

I can remember healing in WoW. What was in my DPS toolkit was rarely on my mind because I rarely had the spare GCDs to use it. Toss out a 24 second DoT then go back to healing. Maybe I'd get another spare GCD to toss out another DoT when the old one expired.

I think the healer job design is fine here. We can do what we need to as healers to help the party survive. We've got a few DPS tools to use if we get spare GCDs.

What isn't fine is encounter design. DPS use their GCDs to deal damage during an encounter. I want to be using my GCDs to heal damage taken. But most of the damage taken by a party overall is taken by a role that doesn't need healer support. That is where design goes bad.

[Supersnow845]

So then what is good job healer design?

Are there other MMOs players can point to and say their healer job design is what a healer job should be and XYZ is why?

I can remember healing in WoW. What was in my DPS toolkit was rarely on my mind because I rarely had the spare GCDs to use it. Toss out a 24 second DoT then go back to healing. Maybe I'd get another spare GCD to toss out another DoT when the old one expired.

I think the healer job design is fine here. We can do what we need to as healers to help the party survive. We've got a few DPS tools to use if we get spare GCDs.

What isn't fine is encounter design. DPS use their GCDs to deal damage during an encounter. I want to be using my GCDs to heal damage taken. But most of the damage taken by a party overall is taken by a role that doesn't need healer support. That is where design goes bad.

“If we get spare GCD’s”

That’s the core of the problem, it’s not “a few spare GCD’s”, it’s 95% of your total GCD’s. GCD healing is expensive on mana and mana regen is completely static. All you have to do is look up your kill time and you will know exactly how much mana you will have. So just bumping up damage to reduce damage GCD’s doesn’t fix fundamental flaws in the healer kit

I’d argue WOW goes too far in the other direction where they actually have well designed DPS kits but they don’t have enough time to use them

14’s healer designs are fundamentally at odds with the encounter but you can’t fix the encounter to bring healing back to the forefront with the current healer kits because once you overwhelm the oGCD’s your kit quickly collapses because we simply cannot sustain GCD spam because it’s so expensive mana wise

WOW is closer to the answer but it needs to be slowed down to 14’s combat speed opening up that extra space to actually using their more in depth rotations

Your final point also isn’t encounter design as a problem that’s a problem or tank design. It’s not encounter designs fault that tanks can heal the amount of damage they take that would be threatening if they didn’t have such ridiculous self healing. Bumping damage up doesn’t fundamentally change the fact that problem comes from tank imbalance, not lack of damage

[Maltothoris]

Thing is, we can't have a constant dmg going pout because of this game's gcd system. WOW's gcd is 1 second. FFXIV is 2.5. Something like say, Anub'arak from WotLk, can't happened in 14 because of this slow gcd. The other issue is they don't want to pressure casuals at all.

Edit: Also as snow said, our healing gcds are much more expensive than our dmg gcds, outside of the tier 1 single target. Cure 2 is 1000, Medica is 900 and pretty weak, Medica 3 is 1000 and heals more than both cure 2 and medica, Cure 3 1500. Alsow tih the thin air nerf, there are much fewer instances of being able to spam cure 3.

[Shurrikhan]

Probably a good idea to specify your being sarcastic because the metrics suggest there are many clearing the raid tier very quickly...so I don't think healers need free stuff for selecting a role.

I'm searching for the part of the post you quoted that asks for healers to have "free stuff", or the any request from the healer strike thread in excess of an actual, non-redundant, non-gutted role. ...Still not finding it...

[Aravell]

I don't really agree with turning the game into WoW. If someone really enjoys attrition healing, there's already WoW for that, we don't need XIV to emulate the same model.

I'd personally rather see the HW model being re-adopted. A healthy balance of damage and healing with a heavier lean towards healing during prog and a lean towards damage in optimisation, but never leaning so far that it tips the balance.

We don't need to change the game drastically, just give us more of what we enjoyed in the past. Raid damage coming out more often than every 40 seconds would be a good start.