The death of savage raiding and SE's lack of action

[Havenchild]

snip

snip.

You both responded to a reply I made to someone else about the Healerstrike being ineffective (true lol)

And both tried to use numbers to justify how either A) a shortage exists or B) not that many healers actually are clearing and are just helping out, again as a response to me pointing out it was a fail.

Now suddenly when the large chunk of evidence we have does support that more healers are clearing compared to alot of other raid tiers, as far more players cleared week 1 than ever before, suddenly neither of you are referring to the healerstrike where my comments have always been about. Im not understanding why you are replying to me then as apparently you aren't disagreeing either.

So back to my point which you both have a hard time swallowing or following, the healerstrike was ineffective. More healers have cleared this tier and faster than before. Shortages have always existed, the healerstrike specifically hasn't really contributed any measureable decline in the presense of healers in PF.

That is seperate from Mr.Math's conclusion that the lack of healers overall in PF is exacerbated now that far more people have cleared.

[Supersnow845]

You both responded to a reply I made to someone else about the Healerstrike being ineffective (true lol)

And both tried to use numbers to justify how either A) a shortage exists or B) not that many healers actually are clearing and are just helping out, again as a response to me pointing out it was a fail.

Now suddenly when the large chunk of evidence we have does support that more healers are clearing compared to alot of other raid tiers as far more players are completing the tier suddenly neither of you are referring to the healerstrike where my comments have always been about. Im not understanding why you are replying to me then as apparently you aren't disagreeing either.

So back to my point which you both have a hard time swallowing or following, the healerstrike was ineffective. More healers have cleared this tier and faster than before. Shortages have always existed, the healerstrike specifically hasn't really contributed any measureable decline in the presense of healers in PF.

That is seperate from Mr.Math's conclusion that the lack of healers overall in PF is exasperated now that far more people have cleared.

You ever consider the fact that I was replying to a part of your comment that didn’t involve your mention of the healer strike

I opposed your weird use of anecdotes when you also tell other people they are meaningless and that an inbuilt healer shortage should be expected and not attempt be be corrected

I don’t care about whether you attach that to a failure of the healer strike or not. My point was the shortage is bad this tier and when you asked me to explain myself I did which caused to come up with a dumb nickname but never actually acknowledge my point

[Havenchild]

You ever consider the fact that I was replying to a part of your comment that didn’t involve your mention of the healer strike

I opposed your weird use of anecdotes when you also tell other people they are meaningless and that an inbuilt healer shortage should be expected and not attempt be be corrected

I don’t care about whether you attach that to a failure of the healer strike or not. My point was the shortage is bad this tier and when you asked me to explain myself I did which caused to come up with a dumb nickname but never actually acknowledge my point

Mr.Math, I apologize I didn't give your comment the attention you wanted. Your point had no real bearing on the overall comment I made about the healerstrike being ineffective so you were decisively ignored since you can't stay on topic. If you are going to respond to my point about the healerstrike working specifically, I am waiting for you to provide evidence of that. Otherwise, it makes no sense for you to respond to a comment that had to deal with the healerstrike and was the response to someone who was referring to the healerstrike.

Your failure to follow context is still not my problem however.

[Supersnow845]

Mr.Math, I apologize I didn't give your comment the attention you wanted. Your point had no real bearing on the overall comment I made about the healerstrike being ineffective so you were decisively ignored since you can't stay on topic. If you are going to respond to my point about the healerstrike working specifically, I am waiting for you to provide evidence of that. Otherwise, it makes no sense for you to respond to a comment that had to deal with the healerstrike and was the response to someone who was referring to the healerstrike.

Your failure to follow context is still not my problem however.

Accuses people of being unable to stay on topic

Literally deflects to a point nobody besides themselves is making for 10 comments acting like everyone else is making the same point then when everyone agrees nobody is making that point besides you suddenly pivots to “well don’t reply to me if you aren’t making that point” despite arguing for said 10 posts as if anyone was actually making that point

Your choice of argument style is certainly………interesting. Being unable to pivot in a discussion isn’t a strength in an argument

Have a nice day this obviously isn’t going anywhere

[Aravell]

Shortages have always existed

This is completely going against the reality that Yoshi P himself acknowledged a healer shortage just 2 tiers ago and also begged people to give healers a try.

Are you saying that somehow the healer population surged from a population low enough for the producer to speak up about it to a healthy sustainable population in less than 2 years? To the point that there's no longer a concern about it?

There's a lot of evidence that you're overlooking to try and make your view of reality to become real. Like I said before, your view may be true for your own narrow circle, but that doesn't make it a hard fact, and cherrypicking your data doesn't change that.

Edit: Not sure why you have to make everything about the healerstrike, but you do what you like.

[Havenchild]

This is completely going against the reality that Yoshi P himself acknowledged a healer shortage just 2 tiers ago and also begged people to give healers a try.

Are you saying that somehow the healer population surged from a population low enough for the producer to speak up about it to a healthy sustainable population in less than 2 years? To the point that there's no longer a concern about it?

There's a lot of evidence that you're overlooking to try and make your view of reality to become real. Like I said before, your view may be true for your own narrow circle, but that doesn't make it a hard fact, and cherrypicking your data doesn't change that.

Edit: Not sure why you have to make everything about the healerstrike, but you do what you like.

You should go back to what my initial response was, who it was to and what I said if you are failing to understand why I keep returning to the point of healer strike being ineffective.
And yes, based off current numbers of clears week 1, I am indeed saying that more healers cleared this tier than previous savage raid tiers (least in the last expansion) for sure. Thus the logical conclusion is that the healer strike is ineffective but that is no surprise as largely it was a forum movement which doesn't have as much impact on PF.

Lastly, I will disagree with your supposition that I have claimed "there's no longer a concern" as I have never claimed the fact. To Mr.Maths singular unrelated point, a shortage of ALL support roles still exists. This is not due to the healer strike OR people thinking support roles are just garbage to play however, nothing specifically measurable that is in comparison. MMO players ,simply, on average, will choose to play DPS compared to Support roles. That's the logic every MMO game ever has shown us and for FFXIV an issue that has consistently remained almost it's entire raiding scene career.

Now if you want to say my view is subjective, that the healer strike specifically is a failure, then ok I guess?
But the numbers simply don't support the logic.

[Supersnow845]

You should go back to what my initial response was, who it was to and what I said if you are failing to understand why I keep returning to the point of healer strike being ineffective.
And yes, based off current numbers of clears week 1, I am indeed saying that more healers cleared this tier than previous savage raid tiers (least in the last expansion) for sure. Thus the logical conclusion is that the healer strike is ineffective but that is no surprise as largely it was a forum movement which doesn't have as much impact on PF.

Lastly, I will disagree with your supposition that I have claimed "there's no longer a concern" as I have never claimed the fact. To Mr.Maths singular unrelated point, a shortage of ALL support roles still exists. This is not due to the healer strike OR people thinking support roles are just garbage to play however, nothing specifically measurable that is in comparison. MMO players ,simply, on average, will choose to play DPS compared to Support roles. That's the logic every MMO game ever has shown us and for FFXIV an issue that has consistently remained almost it's entire raiding scene career.

Now if you want to say my view is subjective, that the healer strike specifically is a failure, then ok I guess?
But the numbers simply don't support the logic.

Your last edit is Exactly why we are disagreeing with you

You are saying stuff about the healer strike because that’s the point you opened with that we replied to…….fair enough, we probably should have specifically mentioned we aren’t discussing the healer strike to give you a choice to bow out of the conversation or engage with our change of direction. However as it stands now you are connecting points to the healer strike we never made. We never said your view that the healer strike is a failure was subjective (hell as much as I championed it I don’t think the current shortage is caused by the strike at all, like I said I think it’s caused by larger clear rates bringing a baseline shortage to the forefront), we said that your view that there is nothing wrong with healers or nothing wrong with healers in PF is wrong because the listening posts are currently discussing problems with it endlessly

You aren’t wrong for being confused and annoyed we pivoted and dragged you along, but you are wrong for continuing to link points we made to the healer striker when we explicitly have told you like 5 times we aren’t talking about the healer strike

[Havenchild]

Your last edit is Exactly why we are disagreeing with you

You are saying stuff about the healer strike because that’s the point you opened with that we replied to…….fair enough, we probably should have specifically mentioned we aren’t discussing the healer strike to give you a choice to bow out of the conversation or engage with our change of direction. However as it stands now you are connecting points to the healer strike we never made. We never said your view that the healer strike is a failure was subjective (hell as much as I championed it I don’t think the current shortage is caused by the strike at all, like I said I think it’s caused by larger clear rates bringing a baseline shortage to the forefront), we said that your view that there is nothing wrong with healers or nothing wrong with healers in PF is wrong because the listening posts are currently discussing problems with it endlessly

You aren’t wrong for being confused and annoyed we pivoted and dragged you along, but you are wrong for continuing to link points we made to the healer striker when we explicitly have told you like 5 times we aren’t talking about the healer strike

Mr.Math, we already know you couldn't follow the initial reply I made to someone being sarcastic about the Healer strike. You don't have to keep reminding us how much you struggle to follow the conversation, we get it. My point has always been about the healer strike being a failure. If you chose to respond to my comment on the healer strike, do so in the context of that if you care to debate my point. Since you have no context to stand on, suddenly I'm the one twisting anyone else's words, when mine have always been focused on one specific point. Go back to page 7, it's right there for you. You are the one who tried to come up with math to strawman away from my point which has always been

-THE HEALER STRIKE FAILED-

to talk about there is a healer shortage overall, which has literally ALWAYS been an issue.

[Aravell]

MMO players ,simply, on average, will choose to play DPS compared to Support roles. That's the logic every MMO game ever has shown us and for FFXIV an issue that has consistently remained almost it's entire raiding scene career.

And yet the shortage has gotten so bad that multiple places are talking about it.

This isn't just a forum echo chamber thing. People who laughed about the healerstrike are also acknowledging a shortage, and it's still early in the tier, it can only get worse from here.

You keep saying that numbers support you, yet you don't have these numbers, no one here does, only SE themselves have the numbers.

You're also pointedly ignoring the fact that it's getting really bad on JP, the place where people think healers are greatly enjoyed. 2ch is complaining about bad healers and also lack of healers joining PFs. There's been documented instances of people offering millions of gil for a healer to help their PF. Why aren't people offering gil to tanks if they're equally as scarce?

[Havenchild]

And yet the shortage has gotten so bad that multiple places are talking about it.

This isn't just a forum echo chamber thing. People who laughed about the healerstrike are also acknowledging a shortage, and it's still early in the tier, it can only get worse from here.

You keep saying that numbers support you, yet you don't have these numbers, no one here does, only SE themselves have the numbers.

So there's a neat little thing called FFL (figure it out), which you can parse out how many people cleared (and uploaded) clears by the end of week 1.

Some of the data is as follows and has been confirmed on twitter/reddit by multiple users.

Week 1 Tier Clears

Arcadion: 950
Anabaseios: 288
Abyssos: 252
Asphodelos: 539
Eden Promise: 172
Eden's Gate: 313

(Eden Verse doesn't exist because FFL was down for Week 1)

Now keep in mind, this only includes loggers, and perhaps repeat clearers (on alts) so those uploads could be potentially included as well. But I assure you, that is rarer for Week 1 than not as most people hit a sort of burn out after the heavy prog and rarely jump back into PF that week (but not impossible on an alt). If we even remove 100 uploads from each column in each tier to account for this, there is still a decisive increase in the amount of clears of Arcadion compared to others. I imagine the LuckyBancho numbers (which read achievements on lodestone and due to be released within the next month or two) will confirm a big jump in overall clears.