Why Erenville succeeded as a character where others did not

[Catwho]

I'm dropping this in the Lore category for multiple reasons, but primarily because it speaks to how Erenville and a few other MSQ characters were introduced and handled correctly in the storyline and sidequests over the various expansions.

Yoshi P apparently expressed the dev team's concerns over introducing new characters, versus keeping the old cast around.

We're not bound to immediately hate new characters! But I think they need to be introduced briefly, cycled out of MSQ, and left to cook a bit before being thrust into the spotlight again.

Characters that were introduced EARLY and then got turned into MSQ companions later that we love a bunch:

• Krile was name dropped by Minfilia during a linkshell call because of the disappearance of the Isle of Val in base ARR or early 2.X if I remember right.
• Yugiri was introduced during the ARR 2.X series but did not get her time to shine until Stormblood.
• The Warriors of Darkness were introduced in the 3.X series but did not get their time to shine until Shadowbringers. We love Ardbert!
• Erenville was introduced during Endwalker MSQ very briefly. We've had two and a half years to be intrigued by him.

My recommendation to Yoshi P, the development team, and the writing team, is to give us a brief introduction to a new character as early as possible in MSQ (NOT side content... don't make another mistake like G'raha - I love him but forcing new players to do CT was a ham fisted solution to that problem) before making them become a full time companion or the "main star" of their own expansion.

For example, a character that I'm genuinely intrigued by and would like to know more about that was only barely mentioned in MSQ so far is.... Shale. 10/10 character design, I'm guessing she's Ysayle's soul shard companion, and I'd like to get to know her better. (Make her the star of 8.0 as a hacker queen and it's justified IMO /s)

[Cleretic]

The thing that I'd note about these characters is that they probably weren't pitched initially as later important characters; with one exception, they were all minor characters that could've easily been cycled back afterwards, that got 'promoted' only after they'd already worked. I would mark that one exception as Yugiri, who was written in with very clear and prominent purpose, as both a sneak peek of Ninja/Au Ra and a plot hook for going to Doma; all the rest of those characters could have never turned up again after their first story, and nothing would've been weird.

There's also plenty of examples of this... I wouldn't say 'not working out' because that implies failed intention, but just characters that never got an audience response worthy of followup. As a random example, Tansui from the Confederacy could've totally had the chops to join in on a greater story, but we don't really care about Tansui, so what would be the point?

Promoting these sorts of characters as if their first appearance was a TV show pilot are all well and good, they're pretty reliable ways to catch our eyeballs, but they're by no means something you could use any more than they already do. You can't fill an entire expansion with 'people we generally liked an expansion or two ago', there's just not that many that could be united into one story. Not to mention it can hit what I'd call 'character function limitations', because a lot of these characters are designed for the story and role they were originally in, and can't necessarily make the pivot into something bigger. Erenville's a great example; he literally couldn't have shouldered a bigger role in Dawntrail if he tried, because he's not designed to. He's a generally passive guy without directly relevant skills and knowledge he doesn't put into play himself, because he was designed to be a minor NPC who tells us important info before we move on. When it comes to filling a whole new expansion full of characters that we'll hopefully like, there's not a lot of room for promoting proven successes; you've gotta make a lot of educated guesses. (All things considered, their hit rate's pretty good!)

All that said, Shale fits what I'd call the actual main critieria: a minor character that the playerbase decided was more interesting than everyone around her. I genuinely have no idea why everyone likes Shale, I'd actually put her as among the dullest elezen designs in the game, but the random whims of the fans have spoken.

[LilimoLimomo]

Erenville seems like a poor example for this phenomenon, because when he finally got his time in the spotlight, it was entirely squandered. He desperately wants to find his mother, then when he finds her he just silently and begrudgingly tolerates her emotional abuse, then after hours of that he has a sudden character shift where he professes to the abusive AI copy of his mother that he'll make his life's purpose to continue working towards her dreams or whatever. He was with us for so long, and in all that time nothing meaningful or coherent happened. And that has the unfortunate effect of making him seem like a more hollow and uninteresting character than he was before he was given his time to shine.

[Catwho]

Erenville seems like a poor example for this phenomenon, because when he finally got his time in the spotlight, it was entirely squandered. He desperately wants to find his mother, then when he finds her he just silently and begrudgingly tolerates her emotional abuse, then after hours of that he has a sudden character shift where he professes to the abusive AI copy of his mother that he'll make his life's purpose to continue working towards her dreams or whatever. He was with us for so long, and in all that time nothing meaningful or coherent happened. And that has the unfortunate effect of making him seem like a more hollow and uninteresting character than he was before he was given his time to shine.

I don't think MSQ is done with Erenville. He's EXTREMELY popular among the fanartist set (and was long before Dawntrail.) That's one of the unofficial metrics that the dev team seems to use for how popular a character is - and I'm sure they were surprised by unexpected thirst track Bakool Ja Ja based on that metric.

That said, him being quiet about his inner turmoil over watching his entire civilization disappear in the blink of an eye is on point. Not every character externalizes their emotions. Him keeping the entire thing bottled up those last few levels tracks with the kind of personality he was shown to have.

[LilimoLimomo]

That said, him being quiet about his inner turmoil over watching his entire civilization disappear in the blink of an eye is on point. Not every character externalizes their emotions. Him keeping the entire thing bottled up those last few levels tracks with the kind of personality he was shown to have.

To be clear, I have no problem with Erenville being characterized as reserved or bottling up his emotions. His overall reticence speaks to the fact that he's experiencing some manner of inner conflict, and that the conclusion of his story will be the resolution of that conflict. But in a well-written story, the writer needs to find ways for us to get glimpses of what's going on underneath that quiet exterior so that we can get a better idea of what the conflict is, such that when the relative silence is finally broken the result feels like the resolution of an arc rather than a complete surprise.

And the way Erinville is written, we do get our fair share of peeks underneath the curtain...but what we're shown doesn't really line-up with the conclusion of his story. The way Erenville is written in Dawntrail, I got the distinct impression that he disliked his mother. She habitually openly belittles him in front of others, and he clearly doesn't like it. And when she's not belittling him, he generally seems displeased by her and seems to dislike interacting with her.

So it read as a huge and unexpected twist to me when at the end of his narrative, he suddenly declares his intention to work towards her dreams. Because the narrative I was reading was doing a great job at dropping breadcrumbs suggesting that Erenville disliked his mother, and it was doing a poor job of dropping breadcrumbs suggesting that they had a connection that was deep enough for him to want to devote his remaining years to continuing her life's work. Which is to say, the way the story was told right up until its conclusion communicated to me that Erinville's conflict was his complex feelings towards his mother. Their shared interest in the natural world seemed to be overshadowed by the poor way she treated him and the fact that he didn't seem to know how to stand up for himself. Thus, the resolution of such a story would be one where Erenville grows and clearly demonstrates an improved ability to navigate the complexity of their relationship, both the good and the bad.

And I think it's a damn shame that the writer couldn't deliver that, either because they accidentally set up an arc they didn't intend to, or because they didn't know how to write the landing.

[Layte_Aeon]

To be clear, I have no problem with Erenville being characterized as reserved or bottling up his emotions. His overall reticence speaks to the fact that he's experiencing some manner of inner conflict, and that the conclusion of his story will be the resolution of that conflict. But in a well-written story, the writer needs to find ways for us to get glimpses of what's going on underneath that quiet exterior so that we can get a better idea of what the conflict is, such that when the relative silence is finally broken the result feels like the resolution of an arc rather than a complete surprise.

And the way Erinville is written, we do get our fair share of peeks underneath the curtain...but what we're shown doesn't really line-up with the conclusion of his story. The way Erenville is written in Dawntrail, I got the distinct impression that he disliked his mother. She habitually openly belittles him in front of others, and he clearly doesn't like it. And when she's not belittling him, he generally seems displeased by her and seems to dislike interacting with her.

So it read as a huge and unexpected twist to me when at the end of his narrative, he suddenly declares his intention to work towards her dreams. Because the narrative I was reading was doing a great job at dropping breadcrumbs suggesting that Erenville disliked his mother, and it was doing a poor job of dropping breadcrumbs suggesting that they had a connection that was deep enough for him to want to devote his remaining years to continuing her life's work. Which is to say, the way the story was told right up until its conclusion communicated to me that Erinville's conflict was his complex feelings towards his mother. Their shared interest in the natural world seemed to be overshadowed by the poor way she treated him and the fact that he didn't seem to know how to stand up for himself. Thus, the resolution of such a story would be one where Erenville grows and clearly demonstrates an improved ability to navigate the complexity of their relationship, both the good and the bad.

And I think it's a damn shame that the writer couldn't deliver that, either because they accidentally set up an arc they didn't intend to, or because they didn't know how to write the landing.

Honestly, to me the relationship felt very much like mentor and student that just happen to be related, Cahchiua herself referring to him as her student multiple times. The tension between them appeared to me not as hatred but a combination of her now being an Endless and the two them being so different in personality. Her being a very social extrovert compared to his reserved reticence. I don't think there was any genuine dislike, Erenville wouldn't invite us to meet her if that was the case.

[LilimoLimomo]

Honestly, to me the relationship felt very much like mentor and student that just happen to be related, Cahchiua herself referring to him as her student multiple times. The tension between them appeared to me not as hatred but a combination of her now being an Endless and the two them being so different in personality. Her being a very social extrovert compared to his reserved reticence. I don't think there was any genuine dislike, Erenville wouldn't invite us to meet her if that was the case.

I personally wouldn't use the word "hatred". My read was that he both liked and disliked her, which is a very common way to feel about family. Because yeah, I do agree that he has some positive feelings for her, as that is implied in the fact that he comes to see her at all. But when it comes to what we are actually shown, we see Erenville reacting negatively to interactions and time spent with his mother far more often than we see positive interactions. (And this pattern of behavior starts well before he realizes that his mother is a dead robot.) She belittles him and then he generally looks upset and stays that way; this is something he clearly dislikes that she relentlessly continues to do in spite of his transparent displeasure. And with her being both his mother and his mentor, it reads as emotional abuse.

In contrast, we can look to the interactions between Y'shtola and her mentor, Master Matoya. These two also have a nuanced relationship, but in a way that reads as healthy. Matoya sends barbs at Y'shtola, and Y'shtola sends barbs right back, and then — importantly — they continue their conversation as if none of that was a big deal. And there are times when they drop the performative verbal jousting, when Matoya lets down her guard for a moment and tries to connect with Y'sthola because she's concerned for her well-being. In much less time than we spend with Erenville and Cahchiua, we get to see that Y'sthola and Matoya share a rapport, have mutual respect for each other, and that the mentor cares for her student.

[Catwho]

Odd, I didn't get the impression that he disliked his mother at all. He was a bit of a tsundere towards her, compared to her open and direct affection, but being embarrassed by how your mom acts is just normal for the age equivalent of a teenager like Erenville.

We're never told his age, but considering how Viera live so long, and him being childhood friends with Wuk Lamat, I get the impression he's in his 20s at the latest. Maybe a similar age as Koana. So I put him in the "late teen" bucket in my head, like the twins, even though he's older than them.

[LilimoLimomo]

Odd, I didn't get the impression that he disliked his mother at all. He was a bit of a tsundere towards her, compared to her open and direct affection, but being embarrassed by how your mom acts is just normal for the age equivalent of a teenager like Erenville.

Valid; it's totally fair for different people to have different reads. That's one of the amazing — if at times confounding — aspects of the human condition: we all interpret every single experience through our own lens, with each distinct lens being custom crafted by a lifetime of nature and nurture. ^^

Which tangentially reminds me of my favorite 3 minutes of video I've ever had the pleasure of experiencing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N6y6LEwsKc&t=474s
7:55 - 10:55

[Cleretic]

The way I read Erenville and Cahciua's relationship does completely track as parent-child, but it makes sense as parent-child for the characters. Which is inherently imperfect, but not to the point of negativity.

From Erenville's side of things, I never once got the feeling that Erenville didn't love his mom, but he is a person that puts context before all else; he's reuniting with his mother in a really extreme situation, and he wants to solve that before anything else. That said, he's definitely also someone who's grown more than how his mother treats him, he wants to be treated differently now, and while everyone else we meet who knew him does, his mother treats him how she always has. It reads well, from the perspective of Erenville going back to his hometown after having made a career elsewhere. He does love her, he wouldn't have tried to go to Yyasulani or been so torn up when everything happened if he didn't, but it takes a long time before there's nothing else going on than that, and even then, they still have to work through the way Cahiua actually treats him, which he clearly isn't the biggest fan of.

Cahciua, on the other hand, is an extremely loving mother who maybe didn't have time to be as good of one as she wanted. She's a woman who wanted to explore the world, but got bound down with both her son and her responsibility to her community; there's a wanderlust that was never sated, and was perhaps channeled into her son. That role as village chief (or whatever her title was, I don't recall if she actually got one said) also meant that she didn't have the most time spent with her son; clearly everyone else stepped up, but it does mean that she didn't get to share the developmental landmarks she wanted to. When they reunite, she's as doting as ever--maybe more than she should be, her son's an adult who's here on a job--and she does want her last act in Living Memory to be those moments she missed; not just finally getting to explore, but finally getting to spend quality time with her son.

You do have to accept that the Cahciua we meet is a real person for all intents and purposes, though, which I think eludes some people. The game itself never dismisses the Endless as an 'AI copy' of the original like Lilimo said and like how a lot of people seem to want to (and she was definitely not abusive, where does that come from); every Endless we meet is given the love, respect and responses that you'd expect of the real person. That's perhaps most important for Cahciua to go down well, because she's an Endless even before we learn that.