Dawntrail character graphics update - opinions, requests and discussion megathread

[Kaziek]

The game previously had a very rudimentary lighting solution and now it has a very good one. There are of course real issues that should be addressed with the models and lighting, I have an accepted bug report open on one of them right now, but I do think some people are just very surprised at how drastically the look of their character is effected by different environments and conditions, as it should be.

I think I have to disagree here. Why is that as it should be? This is a game after all, and a stylized one at that. Making characters look worse under some conditions in the pursuit of realism is not the best course in my opinion.

Your photo reference is also a really good example of what many have a problem with currently. Those kinds of shadows make sense in that scene with it being indoors and under harsh directly overhead lights. But those same kinds of shadows are often cast on some character faces during standard daytime lighting, which isn't realistic or appealing.

[Astronis]

(and straight up missing normal maps, a thing you would think would be carefully checked for QC, but got filed into 'not a bug' in ENG and JP forums)

That appears to be fixed, since all player-character roegadyn faces have normal maps. They're pretty subtle on some of them, but they exist.

[faiarrow]

That appears to be fixed, since all player-character roegadyn faces have normal maps. They're pretty subtle on some of them, but they exist.

Femroe Face 2 is still missing an entire eyebrow normal map but still has the baked in shadow for it in our flat diffuse, so no, this has not been corrected.

Edit: Popping these here from a few posts back since I'm at work right now.

Yeah, the missing normal map for Face 2's brow is a huge problem, we've just got random baked in shading that looks like an unfinished contour because the actual 3D data for lighting isn't there. (Excuse the JP on these - it's from my bug reports and other feedback posts)

[Iscah]

When I reached this scene I had a good chuckle because I realized it looks exactly like so many pictures people have posted as examples of how bad the graphical update looks.

That's actually a really good example of something they have gotten very wrong with some of the new models, which is the shape of the face around the cheeks and upper lip.

The lighting in your screenshot shows that the light falling on the face traces a line from the temples towards a point below the nose, then turns downwards at the nasolabial fold.

In a number of cases with the update, lighting on the old face did this, but the new face has been turned into an unnatural shape with crease running inwards to the centre of the lip instead of outwards to the edges, and the light falls accordingly.

[azaleai]

That appears to be fixed, since all player-character roegadyn faces have normal maps. They're pretty subtle on some of them, but they exist.

The issue isn't that there's no normal map at all, the issue is that the normal map is missing vital data that the face used to have.



Here is the eyebrow area of the EW normal map next to the DT one. The furrowed brow (which I'd argue is the defining characteristic of the face!) been completely and utterly erased, meaning the face has lost definition and detail. It's now smooth like a wax doll, like we've been airbrushed into those awful overly-photoshopped magazine covers that barely look human.

For reference, this is the DT normal map for male Miqo'te face 2 - the grumpy older looking one:



So it's not a matter of everyone getting smoothed out to be more realistic or play nicer with the lighting or what have you, it is pure and simple, erasure racial traits and the application of some awful beutifying filter to make all the females look more conventionally attractive which, in my opinion, has completely and utterly backfired.

Additionally, the normal map and the diffuse map don't even line up on the lips:



Also, the eye socket appears to start half-way up the forehead, making it look like some barbie doll a child tried to gouge the eyes out of. The facial structure the face had before the update has been completely and utterly ruined. There is no longer a crease between the brow ridge and the top of the nose. There is no longer the faint normal detail showing the muscle under the eyebrow.



Yes it has a normal map. But it is a broken one.

This is not an upgrade. This is a mess.

[CidHeiral]

This is a game after all, and a stylized one at that. Making characters look worse under some conditions in the pursuit of realism is not the best course in my opinion.

Fair enough, but I'm not quite sure what you mean. Characters will always look worse under some conditions. The same thing happened before the graphical update ever existed.



That's a bit of an extreme example, I didn't bookmark the master post of terrible pre-7.0 lighting examples that someone around here keeps posting, but I'm sure you get my point. I'm not seeing a way around that without a radical reinvention of the game's visual style.

Also, keep in mind the shadows were softer in the first benchmark and were made more harsh due to player feedback. Personally I preferred the softer shadows so I'm at least partially with you there.

Your photo reference is also a really good example of what many have a problem with currently. Those kinds of shadows make sense in that scene with it being indoors and under harsh directly overhead lights. But those same kinds of shadows are often cast on some character faces during standard daytime lighting, which isn't realistic or appealing.

You bring up a good point that I realize I was unclear about in my previous post. I was referring more to the way the shadows were being cast across the face than the actual darkness of the shadows. I haven't seen any standard daytime screenshots that are that dark, but I'd be happy to take a look if you have any examples.

In a number of cases with the update, lighting on the old face did this, but the new face has been turned into an unnatural shape with crease running inwards to the centre of the lip instead of outwards to the edges, and the light falls accordingly.

I see what you mean and that definitely looks like an issue that should be corrected. That is why I made sure to mention such issues exist in my previous post.

[Astronis]

Femroe Face 2 is still missing an entire eyebrow normal map but still has the baked in shadow for it in our flat diffuse, so no, this has not been corrected.

OK, I see what you are talking about, it sounded like you meant the normal map was actually, literally missing. It's there (it's visible in your last picture), but the shadow on the diffuse is entirely too dark and sharp. It does look like to me that the face normal map could be adjusted for it, or the shadow softened so it doesn't look so painted on. Hopefully that does get adjusted.

[Cyrtip]

snip

What problems were there with the older race models? I remember the live letter where he went over the lengths they went through to preserve the way shading?/shadows? (it's been a while) looked on lalafell pre 7.0, and how the devs talked about preserving the dead-eyes look of Au Ra♀'s face 1 (The small backwards horns face), but both of those were aspects of the races that they tried to keep, not to fix.

That and as far as I know the devs have been pretty good with fixing actual bugs found in the newer graphics (Au Ra♀ hands having an untextured scale, or their body scales looking incredibly jagged and low quality where they met the skin, both fixed sometime between 7.0-7.05). Was that not the case with the old graphics, were issues like those present and left unfixed?

Personally, due to my dissatisfaction with the new graphics, I'm inclined to think the issues were 'issues,' or artistic choices made for one reason or another (Could even be due to technical limitation) that players grew to love over the years, which are now gone. An example that could have been a technical limitation I personally miss is how <7.0 Au Ra limbal rings were just a hard edged solid color ring placed over the edge of the eye that followed the brightness of the eye, being dark when the eye was in darkness, and bright under light, while the new limbal rings are fancy gradients that are dark when light shines directly on them, but glow on their own when in the dark (Appearing to grow thicker in the process because the transparent parts of the gradient become more distinct). Whether limbal rings were the way they were for the last nine years due to technical limitations or something else entirely, I don't really care. Even if they failed developer expectations almost a decade ago, they were also part of the character impressions we were promised would be maintained three months ago, and I wish that had taken precedence.
This post from the JP forums shows what I mean with the limbal rings:

I've noticed this as well. I recently rewatched Girl With The Dragon Tattoo (excellent movie) and there's a scene that takes place in an elevator with light directly overhead. When I reached this scene I had a good chuckle because I realized it looks exactly like so many pictures people have posted as examples of how bad the graphical update looks.

The best way I can think to articulate my gripes with the lighting is that I don't want it to look realistic, I want it to look good. Lighting like that would probably fit right in and look great in a tense scene like the bloody banquet, but in Gridania's markets or inn?

[Iscah]

I don't recall people complaining specifically about shadows in the first benchmark - rather, the lighting in general was broken because it was making characters look translucent. At least, that was my primary issue with it.

[Astronis]

What problems were there with the older race models?

Specifically with the lalafell, Yoshi-P pointed out some polygons on their faces that, because of the downgrade from 1.0, resulted in a look that was uneven and bumpy.

Personally, due to my dissatisfaction with the new graphics, I'm inclined to think the issues were 'issues,' or artistic choices made for one reason or another (Could even be due to technical limitation) that players grew to love over the years, which are now gone.

Some of this is certainly part of it. I know that people complained about losing visible vertex edges (on an elezen I believe) in one of the older threads. That could be in the realm of technical limitation that some people liked. I don't think the artists should make visible vertex edges intentionally, though.

An example that could have been a technical limitation I personally miss is how <7.0 Au Ra limbal rings were just a hard edged solid color ring placed over the edge of the eye that followed the brightness of the eye, being dark when the eye was in darkness, and bright under light, while the new limbal rings are fancy gradients that are dark when light shines directly on them, but glow on their own when in the dark (Appearing to grow thicker in the process because the transparent parts of the gradient become more distinct).

I can see that. However they're doing limbal rings now is definitely different. They now do quite a lot to change the color of the eyes when they didn't before. I had to adjust the color on my au ra alt's limbal rings to get closer to the original look.

In any event, the devs wished to update the character models, and obviously, a lot of people simply wished they hadn't, while a lot of people are very glad they did. I think, with some things still outstanding that could be adjusted, the devs delivered on their promise about as well as humanly possible, given millions of players will never agree on anything so ephemeral as "impression". Humanly possible, not divinely possible. It's not slip-shod, lazy, lacking in quality, but there are still some things that can be tweaked. How do you think the devs should navigate the path between players who feel they failed to deliver on the promise regarding "impressions" and players who are more than satisfied with the delivery on those same "impressions"?

Maybe they'll do what some other games have done, and let players flip a switch on the models. They can't do that with the lighting, so the results might not be that great, and it would close the devs off from what they hoped to gain from standardizing the models, but maybe they'll do that.