Dawntrail character graphics update - opinions, requests and discussion megathread

[Turnintino]

Faces either designed by or inspired by Tetsuya Nomura's work still look unmistakably like Tetsuya Nomura's work.

I hate to be that person, but small nitpick: the 1.0-2.0 races, at least, are based closely on Akihiko Yoshida's concept art. Kazuya Takahashi and Tsubasa Masao seemed to largely take over from there, as far as player character designs are concerned. The only designs Nomura's directly contributed (not counting crossovers, that is) have been for Gaia and Eden's Promise (the boss, not the entire series lol).

[Astronis]

I hate to be that person, but small nitpick: the 1.0-2.0 races, at least, are based closely on Akihiko Yoshida's concept art. Kazuya Takahashi and Tsubasa Masao seemed to largely take over from there, as far as player character designs are concerned. The only designs Nomura's directly contributed (not counting crossovers, that is) have been for Gaia and Eden's Promise (the boss, not the entire series lol).

Haha that's why I said "inspired by", because I wasn't sure who exactly designed them directly, though I can still see Nomura's 'fingerprints' all over my character. Probably because he's designed enough characters for Final Fantasies that it's become part of the DNA in the same way Amano's work has. Akihiko Yoshida has a very distinct style, which you can still see in some of the face models for sure.

Thanks for the correction!

[CidHeiral]

I think we can all agree is that Square shouldn't have touched the character models AT ALL. Whatever the old settings they had for years clearly were working.

I don't agree with that at all. There are issues here and there but overall it's a massive upgrade in my opinion.

I think it's important to remember that a lot of the issues also stem from the new lighting that highlights different areas than before which is what makes some areas of the models look weird.

I've noticed this as well. I recently rewatched Girl With The Dragon Tattoo (excellent movie) and there's a scene that takes place in an elevator with light directly overhead. When I reached this scene I had a good chuckle because I realized it looks exactly like so many pictures people have posted as examples of how bad the graphical update looks.



The game previously had a very rudimentary lighting solution and now it has a very good one. There are of course real issues that should be addressed with the models and lighting, I have an accepted bug report open on one of them right now, but I do think some people are just very surprised at how drastically the look of their character is effected by different environments and conditions, as it should be.

[faiarrow]

I understand people bringing up lighting being unflattering and causing 'more issues than are really there' but it's one symptomatic problem of the whole situation. Some of the actual model changes are detrimental regardless of lighting, and not only are problems with the standardisation of polygons shaving racial features (which, given they are readjusting this mesh to "match" the original faces you would think would've had more care given the PR regarding keeping impression the same) but genuinely makes it hard to feel that actual care for quality went into things.

Some faces straight up won the lottery while entire races look/feel very different.

I know I keep harping on about hellsguard - funny what having played one for 9+ years does there - but seeing us lose our traits and have our faces be slapped with a beauty filter (and straight up missing normal maps, a thing you would think would be carefully checked for QC, but got filed into 'not a bug' in ENG and JP forums) in addition to our eyes being DRASTICALLY changed being backed up by the countdown art made for DT featuring the same black pupil with overshadowed eyes, no nose ash, and finer features matching the benchmark looks was a real kick to the gut. It was like a hard confirmation of 'no this is the intended look for you now from our art team get used to it.'

Lighting is one culprit of an entire mess that could've been avoided with due care, tbh.

[Kaziek]

The game previously had a very rudimentary lighting solution and now it has a very good one. There are of course real issues that should be addressed with the models and lighting, I have an accepted bug report open on one of them right now, but I do think some people are just very surprised at how drastically the look of their character is effected by different environments and conditions, as it should be.

I think I have to disagree here. Why is that as it should be? This is a game after all, and a stylized one at that. Making characters look worse under some conditions in the pursuit of realism is not the best course in my opinion.

Your photo reference is also a really good example of what many have a problem with currently. Those kinds of shadows make sense in that scene with it being indoors and under harsh directly overhead lights. But those same kinds of shadows are often cast on some character faces during standard daytime lighting, which isn't realistic or appealing.

[Astronis]

(and straight up missing normal maps, a thing you would think would be carefully checked for QC, but got filed into 'not a bug' in ENG and JP forums)

That appears to be fixed, since all player-character roegadyn faces have normal maps. They're pretty subtle on some of them, but they exist.

[faiarrow]

That appears to be fixed, since all player-character roegadyn faces have normal maps. They're pretty subtle on some of them, but they exist.

Femroe Face 2 is still missing an entire eyebrow normal map but still has the baked in shadow for it in our flat diffuse, so no, this has not been corrected.

Edit: Popping these here from a few posts back since I'm at work right now.

Yeah, the missing normal map for Face 2's brow is a huge problem, we've just got random baked in shading that looks like an unfinished contour because the actual 3D data for lighting isn't there. (Excuse the JP on these - it's from my bug reports and other feedback posts)

[Iscah]

When I reached this scene I had a good chuckle because I realized it looks exactly like so many pictures people have posted as examples of how bad the graphical update looks.

That's actually a really good example of something they have gotten very wrong with some of the new models, which is the shape of the face around the cheeks and upper lip.

The lighting in your screenshot shows that the light falling on the face traces a line from the temples towards a point below the nose, then turns downwards at the nasolabial fold.

In a number of cases with the update, lighting on the old face did this, but the new face has been turned into an unnatural shape with crease running inwards to the centre of the lip instead of outwards to the edges, and the light falls accordingly.

[azaleai]

That appears to be fixed, since all player-character roegadyn faces have normal maps. They're pretty subtle on some of them, but they exist.

The issue isn't that there's no normal map at all, the issue is that the normal map is missing vital data that the face used to have.



Here is the eyebrow area of the EW normal map next to the DT one. The furrowed brow (which I'd argue is the defining characteristic of the face!) been completely and utterly erased, meaning the face has lost definition and detail. It's now smooth like a wax doll, like we've been airbrushed into those awful overly-photoshopped magazine covers that barely look human.

For reference, this is the DT normal map for male Miqo'te face 2 - the grumpy older looking one:



So it's not a matter of everyone getting smoothed out to be more realistic or play nicer with the lighting or what have you, it is pure and simple, erasure racial traits and the application of some awful beutifying filter to make all the females look more conventionally attractive which, in my opinion, has completely and utterly backfired.

Additionally, the normal map and the diffuse map don't even line up on the lips:



Also, the eye socket appears to start half-way up the forehead, making it look like some barbie doll a child tried to gouge the eyes out of. The facial structure the face had before the update has been completely and utterly ruined. There is no longer a crease between the brow ridge and the top of the nose. There is no longer the faint normal detail showing the muscle under the eyebrow.



Yes it has a normal map. But it is a broken one.

This is not an upgrade. This is a mess.

[CidHeiral]

This is a game after all, and a stylized one at that. Making characters look worse under some conditions in the pursuit of realism is not the best course in my opinion.

Fair enough, but I'm not quite sure what you mean. Characters will always look worse under some conditions. The same thing happened before the graphical update ever existed.



That's a bit of an extreme example, I didn't bookmark the master post of terrible pre-7.0 lighting examples that someone around here keeps posting, but I'm sure you get my point. I'm not seeing a way around that without a radical reinvention of the game's visual style.

Also, keep in mind the shadows were softer in the first benchmark and were made more harsh due to player feedback. Personally I preferred the softer shadows so I'm at least partially with you there.

Your photo reference is also a really good example of what many have a problem with currently. Those kinds of shadows make sense in that scene with it being indoors and under harsh directly overhead lights. But those same kinds of shadows are often cast on some character faces during standard daytime lighting, which isn't realistic or appealing.

You bring up a good point that I realize I was unclear about in my previous post. I was referring more to the way the shadows were being cast across the face than the actual darkness of the shadows. I haven't seen any standard daytime screenshots that are that dark, but I'd be happy to take a look if you have any examples.

In a number of cases with the update, lighting on the old face did this, but the new face has been turned into an unnatural shape with crease running inwards to the centre of the lip instead of outwards to the edges, and the light falls accordingly.

I see what you mean and that definitely looks like an issue that should be corrected. That is why I made sure to mention such issues exist in my previous post.