I'm Frustrated with FFXIV's New Direction

[Supersnow845]

My point is, it doesn't actually matter how the story works it. There are members of this forum that want the story and everything and everyone else to revolve around their character. There is no way to reconcile this for the people that did NOT want that.

Also again we must be reading different forums. This is coming from the place that dragged SB MSQ (pre patch) and Lyse as a character for 7 YEARS as "garbage pacing and terrible story/character" and now suddenly because DT has alot of the same successes and fails, it's avidly defending both as "well written", "earned", "great".

The forums are flip floppy indeed.

Yes but you are acting like it’s the fault of the forums being flip floppy that caused nobody to be happy with the situation rather than square trying to appease everyone and ending up appeasing nobody. If two groups have completely opposing views and refuse to comprise at all you don’t take the worst aspects of both sides views and call that a compromise

Square needs to pick a lane and stick to it. This same appease everyone so you appease no one is why the healer design is so garbage right now, you can’t appease the healer mains, sylphies and god complex tanks all at the same time

Different groups espousing different opinions at different times on the forums doesn’t make them flip floppy

[Gaddes]

With Niddhogg and Estinien, it didn't feel unearned to me. With Wuk Lamat and Sphene, the dynamic felt very "awkward girl convinced popular girl, who doesn't even know who she is, is her best friend." There was no connection between them. Lamat only thought there was one.

Yeah, Estinien had the benefit of an entire base Heavensward expansion plus a bit of ARR Dragoon quests to build up that simmering long-term animosity between himself and Nidhogg, so when you finally get to that moment where he can land the killing blow, it's like "all you, pal, this is yours." But with Sphene, we don't even get to meet her until halfway through the expansion, and on top of that there's nowhere near enough time for them to establish a believable connective tissue to Wuk Lamat while we are also suspicious as hell of her at the same time. It just makes it look like Wuk is desperate to make this new leader her friend, when Sphene is really not giving back as much friendliness as Wuk is giving her. Wuk is openly friendly and Sphene has a facade of charm while still holding her cards very close to her chest; these are not the same things, and it makes for a very lopsided "friendship." So when Wuk yells for Sphene and keeps trying to reason with her, I couldn't gel with any of that because you know behind all of that Sphene will vaporize everyone in front of her if it means her people get to live a few days longer.

[Supersnow845]

Yeah, Estinien had the benefit of an entire base Heavensward expansion plus a bit of ARR Dragoon quests to build up that simmering long-term animosity between himself and Nidhogg, so when you finally get to that moment where he can land the killing blow, it's like "all you, pal, this is yours." But with Sphene, we don't even get to meet her until halfway through the expansion, and on top of that there's nowhere near enough time for them to establish a believable connective tissue to Wuk Lamat while we are also suspicious as hell of her at the same time. It just makes it look like Wuk is desperate to make this new leader her friend, when Sphene is really not giving back as much friendliness as Wuk is giving her. Wuk is openly friendly and Sphene has a facade of charm while still holding her cards very close to her chest; these are not the same things, and it makes for a very lopsided "friendship." So when Wuk yells for Sphene and keeps trying to reason with her, I couldn't gel with any of that because you know behind all of that Sphene will vaporize everyone in front of her if it means her people get to live a few days longer.

They intentionally made a scene where sphene refused to tell erenville what happened to cauchia right to his face which was the most blatantly obvious representation that her whole “charming facade” was a crock of shit and then they still wanted us to believe that Sphene and Wuk were forcing some sort of actual bond when they did the final scene

[Havenchild]

Yes but you are acting like it’s the fault of the forums being flip floppy that caused nobody to be happy with the situation rather than square trying to appease everyone and ending up appeasing nobody. If two groups have completely opposing views and refuse to comprise at all you don’t take the worst aspects of both sides views and call that a compromise.

Different groups espousing different opinions at different times on the forums doesn’t make them flip floppy

Yes, the forums tends to have alot of bad ideas and SE tends to listen to those bad ideas instead of just doing what they want.

That's exactly what I'm saying.

As for SE doing "both", honestly, they didn't really make the PC any less relevant even with Wuk Lamat taking up so much. But despite this, even that slight shift off the PC was enough to send people into an uproar. Now imagine if they really committed all the way through and things like Sphene / Queen, were resolved without your involvement. All in all, the focus shift was a sentiment people kept asking for post EW on the forums.

But I digress, the point remains the forum sentiment has dramatically shifted after dogging on SB and Lyse for years. SE didn't do anything to make SB's MSQ or Lyse more palatable. Outside of Zenos, they haven't touched anything from SB for quite some time. So yeah the forums are indeed flip flopping.

[Supersnow845]

I wish I could have enough dedication to a billion dollar company that when they put out a sub par product like DT that I could just blame it on them following their messed up feedback system that barely works rather than actually blaming their process and vision

[BakoolJaJa]

But despite this, even that slight shift off the PC was enough to send people into an uproar. Now imagine if they really committed all the way through and things like Sphene / Queen, were resolved without your involvement. All in all, the focus shift was a sentiment people kept asking for post EW on the forums.

As usual, ignoring the actual feedback (intentionally or unintentionally). People aren't in an uproar because of a slight shift off of WoL. People are in an uproar because the shift is poorly done along with the rest of the writing being crap. This same thread has an ongoing conversation with the Estinien example. This isn't the first time WoL is not the center of the universe. Were people in an uproar then? No. Because it was well done.

Now CBU3 mess up all the writing, and instead of understanding that, they along with some players completely twist all the feedback and walk away with some nonsensical ideas of - "well, guess all the stories now have to be 100% WoL smh these players." I don't get why it's so hard to read what people are actually saying.

[Havenchild]

I wish I could have enough dedication to a billion dollar company that when they put out a sub par product like DT that I could just blame it on them following their messed up feedback system that barely works rather than actually blaming their process and vision

Ahh yes, the strawman when faced with the truth. DT being bad doesn't mean SB is good is still my point. It's just more acceptable to bandwagon the DT hate at the moment.

SE asks people to give feedback on the forums and surprise surprise when they implement different feedback from people that don't understand story telling elements or game balance, we tend to get a worse off product. Who could have guessed?

As usual, ignoring the actual feedback (intentionally or unintentionally). People aren't in an uproar because of a slight shift off of WoL. People are in an uproar because the shift is poorly done along with the rest of the writing being crap. This same thread has an ongoing conversation with the Estinien example. This isn't the first time WoL is not the center of the universe. Were people in an uproar then? No. Because it was well done.

Now CBU3 mess up all the writing, and instead of understanding that, they along with some players completely twist all the feedback and walk away with some nonsensical ideas of - "well, guess all the stories now have to be 100% WoL smh these players." I don't get why it's so hard to read what people are actually saying.

I like this comment, purely because it illustrates exactly my point unironically. Lyse was received disastrously compared to every other character they ever released for largely the exact reasons as Wuk Lamat and mind you there were threads just earlier this year dogging on her and SB. Too much focus on her and off the PC, doing have assed solutions to big problems etc

Community didn't like her then and felt she was dumb for jumping first before understanding anything. Cue Wuk Lamat, who actually does take some time before presenting any solution and.....community still gave her the same complaints anyway. So yeah SE basically rehashed the Lyse archetype but went the opposite way with it and it still fell flat.
Clearly listening to community "feedback" doesn't work otherwise she would have a better reception. Estinien never shifted the focus off of the WoL in HW. You were a companion throughout the whole thing, much the same as with Wuk Lamat. The sole difference is that people just don't like Wuk Lamat as a character (for various reasons) and that's really all that it is and she's WAY more present than even Estinien was.

But to say Lyse was a great character? That's something that was on nobodies forums hot take bingo board.

And lastly, I'm not defending either DT nor Wuk Lamat nor SE. Just calling out the forum hypocrisy and showcasing how SE implementing counter feedback on Lyse from back then with Wuk Lamat (specifically the understanding before doing anything part) and that still blowing up in their faces as now it's "unearned" / "rushed". It's all very strange.

[PercibelTheren]

They intentionally made a scene where sphene refused to tell erenville what happened to cauchia right to his face which was the most blatantly obvious representation that her whole “charming facade” was a crock of shit and then they still wanted us to believe that Sphene and Wuk were forcing some sort of actual bond when they did the final scene

This is a big part of why I found Dawntrail so frustrating. The only way Sphene could have been more obvious would be if she held a giant neon sign saying "I'm this expansion's villain, ask me how".

My ability to suspend my disbelief is pretty strong but I really, REALLY don't like it when the game makes my WoL an idiot. We have been betrayed multiple times. No reasonable person would be this on board with Sphene. Like...you know it's bad when Alisae, of all people, is being the voice of reason.

[Voidmage]

Ahh yes, the strawman when faced with the truth. DT being bad doesn't mean SB is good is still my point. It's just more acceptable to bandwagon the DT hate at the moment.

SE asks people to give feedback on the forums and surprise surprise when they implement different feedback from people that don't understand story telling elements or game balance, we tend to get a worse off product. Who could have guessed?

First:
DT was already done with story development when that „wherever it was Feedback“ was given so no, they didn‘t react to that.
The narrative was fully of their own and what they wanted to write.
Also, I already answered you that this was NOT what the feedback after EW was but whatever.

Second:
Most people don‘t say Stormblood was good now.
They say that in retrospect and compared to DT it wasn‘t as bad as they said it was.

Not all bad decisions of SE are because of feedback. That’s just defending their bad decisions.

[Havenchild]

Not all bad decisions of SE are because of feedback. That’s just defending their bad decisions.

Really? Cause I can point to a lot of complaints about job design that go all the way back to HW, especially Healer role and people wishing for them to simplify it. I can point to several threads on people saying they should get rid of positionals. Hell we even had a thread saying Viper was too hard compared to the other melee.

All feedback that lead to oversimplification of jobs that guess what, a good chunk of the community doesn't like. So yeah, SE does take player feedback but while there is good feedback, there is also bad feedback. And they tend to take on alot of the bad feedback from people who have no conceptual knowledge of literature or game balance. Even YoshiP has voiced his frustrations with the community on feedback they requested being implemented and still getting blowback for it.

Most people don‘t say Stormblood was good now.

Uh?? Any thread post DT launch that compares Wuk/DT to Lyse/SB have people definitively defending the latter.

If you want to hate DT, go for it. It's all subjective. But the presense of DT and Wuk Lamat does not suddenly undo 6-7 years of the forums dogging on SB MSQ and Lyse. You can literally look up MULTIPLE THREADS on this in the search results on these very forums.