Fine, Bloodwhetting is too OP

[Terhix]

No one has debated whether it's currently too strong in AoE situations (except through whataboutisms reliant on dungeons always being dogwater), but simply whether any element of flavor of its healing-per-hit should remain. I have argued it should, since it's iconic to Warrior, but at diminished returns (directly, as per a modifier after the first enemy struck, or indirectly, as by healing for a % of damage dealt).

It's a pretty common problem in game design to have the class fantasy/theme/flavor clash with balance and game mechanics, and I would typically err on the side of fantasy if that fantasy supports a cool niche. That said, you can excuse pretty degenerate gameplay with class fantasy: like should something called "assassin" be able to one-shot kill people out of stealth in a PvP game? Is a niche fantasy creates still a niche if it translates to "I'm the best at doing the thing everyone else in my category is supposed to be good at"?

Putting aside the question of why Warrior even is the signature self-healing tank in the game and not, say, the Paladin, I'd argue it would be healthier in the short term for WAR to lose it's multi-target scaling altogether. If it's balanced in AoE scenario it will be weak in single target, if it's strong in single target it will be broken in AoE. You can't really escape that problem unless, as said before, you make the multi-target scaling completely cosmetic at which you might as well just remove it.

My issue with BW isn't even that it's overpowered or that it makes Warrior the best dungeon tank by a mile. It's the self-healing arms race. Why does Holy Sheltron and Heart of Corundum need any healing at all? Why did PLD get 400p heals on Requiescat combo in 6.1? DRK is now very likely to get more self-sustain not because the job needs it to clear any content (you can MT Savage or run an expert dungeon with 3DPS as DRK already), but because other tanks have it, and other tanks have it because WAR has it in excess.

We have well meaning community videos like this one where the author says: "you can not put The Blackest Night and Bloodwhetting in the same sentence", and he isn't wrong, except that TBN is not the problem ability here. As much as tank self-sustain creates a larger problem in the game (trivializing content, healer strike, etc.), Bloodwhetting is such an extreme outlier here that was allowed to exist through the entirety of Endwalker and now early Dawntrail, it has completely skewed people's perception of what tank performance should even look like.

Yes dungeons are meant to be easy, yes 100% of the playerbase should be able to be able to clear them, but why even have the option to do single pack pulls if anyone with room temperature IQ can go on a Warrior, pull wall to wall, press two buttons and never be at risk of needing a single heal?

[aiqa]

My issue with BW isn't even that it's overpowered or that it makes Warrior the best dungeon tank by a mile. It's the self-healing arms race. Why does Holy Sheltron and Heart of Corundum need any healing at all? Why did PLD get 400p heals on Requiescat combo in 6.1? DRK is now very likely to get more self-sustain not because the job needs it to clear any content (you can MT Savage or run an expert dungeon with 3DPS as DRK already), but because other tanks have it, and other tanks have it because WAR has it in excess.

It's a bit more naunced than that. Before 6.X PLD had 0 selfhealing in any normal situation, which wasn't nearly compensated by the slightly higher mitigation, and didn't feel very good imo. This was the state of PLD sustain in 5.X https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...unt&metric=hps, and for dungeons https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...ps&class=Tanks Like always it's a balancing act. PLD sustain now to strong, but it did actually warrant some buffs after 5.X.

Removing healing from the Requiescat combo and Holy Sheltron would feel a bit jarring when you level up. At level 84 you finally get some much needed self healing. But a few levels later, that would be significantly reduced against when you switch from Requiescat > Holy Circle/Spirit spam (with selfheals), to the level 90 Requiescat combo (without selfheals). For PLD selfhealing nerfs I'd remove healing from all attacks, and increase the healing from Holy Sheltron a bit.

[Supersnow845]

It's a bit more naunced than that. Before 6.X PLD had 0 selfhealing in any normal situation, which wasn't nearly compensated by the slightly higher mitigation, and didn't feel very good imo. This was the state of PLD sustain in 5.X https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...unt&metric=hps, and for dungeons https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...ps&class=Tanks Like always it's a balancing act. PLD sustain now to strong, but it did actually warrant some buffs after 5.X.

Removing healing from the Requiescat combo and Holy Sheltron would feel a bit jarring when you level up. At level 84 you finally get some much needed self healing. But a few levels later, that would be significantly reduced against when you switch from Requiescat > Holy Circle/Spirit spam (with selfheals), to the level 90 Requiescat combo (without selfheals). For PLD selfhealing nerfs I'd remove healing from all attacks, and increase the healing from Holy Sheltron a bit.

I have no idea how you can look at that healing graph and see anything but like every tank graph since ShB launch WAR is overpowered in self sustain

1.6k
1.8k
2.2k
3.4K

Yeah it’s definitely the 1.6 that’s horribly underpowered

[aiqa]

I have no idea how you can look at that healing graph and see anything but like every tank graph since ShB launch WAR is overpowered in self sustain

1.6k
1.8k
2.2k
3.4K

Yeah it’s definitely the 1.6 that’s horribly underpowered

Even when completely ignoring WAR, 37% behind the tank (DRK) that people geneally considered properly balanced is a bit weak yes. And that was in a good situation for PLD. In dungeons it had about half the sustain. You can't balance content properly if tank A has half the sutain of tank B.

I guess it mostly depends on the target you set for balance. If you set your prefered target as pre-6.X PLD, pretty much any healing from all tanks is to much. And even DRK would need a big nerfs. My prefered sutain is about DRK levels, or slightly higher. To reach that level PLD very much needed some improvements.

So yeah, very easy to see more then "omg WAR OP" in those graphs.

[Supersnow845]

Even when completely ignoring WAR, 37% behind the tank (DRK) that people geneally considered properly balanced is a bit weak yes. And that was in a good situation for PLD. In dungeons it had about half the sustain. You can't balance content properly if tank A has half the sutain of tank B.

I guess it mostly depends on the target you set for balance. If you set your prefered target as pre-6.X PLD, pretty much any healing from all tanks is to much. And even DRK would need a big nerfs. My prefered sutain is about DRK levels, or slightly higher. To reach that level PLD very much needed some improvements.

So yeah, very easy to see more then "omg WAR OP" in those graphs.

DRK sustain wasn’t considered poorly balanced in ShB though, everyone agreed that TBN was strong but that DRK had relatively weak sustain outside of that. If anything people point to ShB DRK as an example of what modern tank sustain should look like

So if we take ShB DRK as the peak, or somewhere around it you could maybe argue PLD is slightly weak but it more shows that WAR even then was too strong

DRK is only considered bad now because every tank has gotten TBN but better with less cost and they also have more alternate sustain as well

[Terhix]

It's a bit more naunced than that. Before 6.X PLD had 0 selfhealing in any normal situation, which wasn't nearly compensated by the slightly higher mitigation, and didn't feel very good imo. This was the state of PLD sustain in 5.X https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...unt&metric=hps, and for dungeons https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...ps&class=Tanks Like always it's a balancing act. PLD sustain now to strong, but it did actually warrant some buffs after 5.X.

Removing healing from the Requiescat combo and Holy Sheltron would feel a bit jarring when you level up. At level 84 you finally get some much needed self healing. But a few levels later, that would be significantly reduced against when you switch from Requiescat > Holy Circle/Spirit spam (with selfheals), to the level 90 Requiescat combo (without selfheals). For PLD selfhealing nerfs I'd remove healing from all attacks, and increase the healing from Holy Sheltron a bit.

To be clear I'm not suggesting they remove any healing from PLD, at least not a the state the game is in today, we need a major balance patch that takes a good hard look at all tanks to actually fix the situation we're in, and I have no expectations of that happening before 8.0.