Questionable ethics - Living Memory

[Turtledeluxe]

Does having those qualities not also make something alive? You're sort of failing to see the argument here because you don't want to.

In your example, the copy may not actually be your grandma, but it's worth asking at what point something like that becomes it's own living entity regardless of the circumstances of it's creation.

Also, the projector example doesn't quite hold up. When you turn off living memory some of the endless still stick around. That's like unplugging the projector but the projected image stays and says it still has stuff to do. Your whole analogy falls apart with that. Even the slightest bit of inquisitiveness would have someone questioning things at that point.

Personally, for me, my issues with the zone aren't even necessarily about the conclusion the Scions came to. It's how readily they accepted it and didn't really question anything. That's extremely out of character, especially for people who should know better. Cahciua herself is a strong example that her words aren't matching up to the reality of the situation. There's a very "ends justify the means" feeling to the whole story there and that really isn't how the WOL and Co normally act. That is how the Ascians have always acted, however so I think the comparison is worth considering.

All this to say: the writers didn't do any of this intentionally and it's just a poorly written section of the story. You're clearly supposed to just agree with them.

Having those qualities as a copy and simulation makes you perceivably alive. That's different from being alive.

As for the remaining Endless, I was under the impression that the soul aether didn't just immediately dissipate in certain cases in order for us to have blue quests. So maybe it's like a projector that has backup batteries.

As far as the writers yes rhe story is pretty bad. That's true of most of the xpac. But I think they didn't explore AI, because to your point about the projector, we don't really have a 1:1 in reality for memory aether. If we ever do achieve fully conscious AI, it would be totally different from what is going on here.

And the blue quest thing is not just in DT. People are still sitting in the train in Garlemald. I'm pretty sure the blood is still on the floor. Some things in MMos just have to stick around bc of the game and don't necessarily make narrative sense.

[WickedSensei]

Having those qualities as a copy and simulation makes you perceivably alive. That\\'s different from being alive.

As for the remaining Endless, I was under the impression that the soul aether didn\\'t just immediately dissipate in certain cases in order for us to have blue quests. So maybe it\\'s like a projector that has backup batteries.

As far as the writers yes rhe story is pretty bad. That\\'s true of most of the xpac. But I think they didn\\'t explore AI, because to your point about the projector, we don\\'t really have a 1:1 in reality for memory aether. If we ever do achieve fully conscious AI, it would be totally different from what is going on here.

And the blue quest thing is not just in DT. People are still sitting in the train in Garlemald. I\\'m pretty sure the blood is still on the floor. Some things in MMos just have to stick around bc of the game and don\\'t necessarily make narrative sense.

Narratively it's stated that some endless will be lingering after the shutdown if they felt they were not ready to go yet or had things to still do(paraphrasing).

[Turtledeluxe]

So you basically admit that the prior knowledge of them being copies is the main difference. That fact does matter to the question "is it the same person", but does it matters when it come to the question "is it a living being"? I mean, I guess clones are not living being then? And if they are, how is it different from a copy in an artificial body? Is it the fact it's in artificial body? then what about Robot Otis? Is he not a living being?

Well it also says simulation. Since it's a copy of a person who is dead, that doesn't change from that state and doesn't have any internal processes to speak of, yeah they're more akin to being lifelike than alive. Ultimately they are not the original person and not a continuation of the same existence. They're defined as living memories. If you want to call that alive that's up to you, I don't think that's what we use that term for in reality. I don't think we would use it if Endless really existed. They'd be considered very bizarre.

Regarding Otis, Otis is a better comparison to a real life situation where someone's consciousness is directly placed into a vessel. All of that consciousness and its subjective experience are continuing onward.

The Endless Otis is his lifelike Endless counterpart who is simulating any version of him up to the point of the upload.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

Well it also says simulation. Since it's a copy of a person who is dead, that doesn't change from that state and doesn't have any internal processes to speak of, yeah they're more akin to being lifelike than alive. Ultimately they are not the original person and not a continuation of the same existence. They're defined as living memories. If you want to call that alive that's up to you, I don't think that's what we use that term for in reality. I don't think we would use it if Endless really existed. They'd be considered very bizarre.

Regarding Otis, Otis is a better comparison to a real life situation where someone's consciousness is directly placed into a vessel. All of that consciousness and its subjective experience are continuing onward.

The Endless Otis is his lifelike Endless counterpart who is simulating any version of him up to the point of the upload.

If the Endless don't have internal processes, how do we see a flash of what Otis is thinking of? The game literally shows us one of their thoughts so we KNOW they have internal processes. They may be copies, but Cahcuia never asserted they weren't feeling thinking beings, she just downplayed their humanity by pointing out they aren't the originals. She never said they weren't sentient. After all, if you had a park full of beings that didn't have consciousness, who are they doing all this for? Why would anyone build a program that simulates living beings with no one there to experience the simulation? It'd be like running an empty holodeck for centuries, to what end? Why?

[Turtledeluxe]

If the Endless don't have internal processes, how do we see a flash of what Otis is thinking of? The game literally shows us one of their thoughts so we KNOW they have internal processes. They may be copies, but Cahcuia never asserted they weren't feeling thinking beings, she just downplayed their humanity by pointing out they aren't the originals. She never said they weren't sentient. After all, if you had a park full of beings that didn't have consciousness, who are they doing all this for? Why would anyone build a program that simulates living beings with no one there to experience the simulation? It'd be like running an empty holodeck for centuries, to what end? Why?

I don't see how seeing Otis thinking about something proves that he has a physical nervous system or brain. He's a fascimile of someone who had those things-- why wouldn't he be able to think? You know what he can't do? He can't tell you the flavor of ice cream you're eating if you ask him to guess because he can't taste it. He can't grow. He can't reproduce. You can turn him on and off and he will be in the same state. Life is not defined by having thoughts. You can call it something, it's not life.

Endless are lifelike, as I keep saying. Perceivably alive. Their consciousness is functional, it's just not actually real.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

I don't see how seeing Otis thinking about something proves that he has a physical nervous system or brain. He's a fascimile of someone who had those things-- why wouldn't he be able to think? You know what he can't do? He can't tell you the flavor of ice cream you're eating if you ask him to guess because he can't taste it. He can't grow. He can't reproduce. You can turn him on and off and he will be in the same state. Life is not defined by having thoughts. You can call it something, it's not life.

Endless are lifelike, as I keep saying. Perceivably alive. Their consciousness is functional, it's just not actually real.

Have I once said the Endless are alive? No. I said they are sentient. I said they are people. My breakfast had a nervous system, that's obviously not the metric we use to determine what is and isn't okay to kill. Roaches are alive. Flowers are alive. Our moral exemption isn't for all life, else we'd starve and die. The exemption is for people. It's wrong to wipe out people. It's wrong to enslave people. What makes something a person isn't a nervous system. Pigs have nervous systems, I still had bacon.

If something has a functional consciousness, it has a real consciousness. Are you conflating "real" with biological? While we haven't extended human rights to artificial lifeforms because we haven't met or created any where we'll have to decide their personhood. I'm really hoping that when we do get there that we do better than your average Black Mirror episode. What's the point of imagining all these dystopias if we're just gonna do e-slavery anyway when we get to that point?

[Turtledeluxe]

Have I once said the Endless are alive? No. I said they are sentient. I said they are people. My breakfast had a nervous system, that's obviously not the metric we use to determine what is and isn't okay to kill. Roaches are alive. Flowers are alive. Our moral exemption isn't for all life, else we'd starve and die. The exemption is for people. It's wrong to wipe out people. It's wrong to enslave people. What makes something a person isn't a nervous system. Pigs have nervous systems, I still had bacon.

If something has a functional consciousness, it has a real consciousness. Are you conflating "real" with biological? While we haven't extended human rights to artificial lifeforms because we haven't met or created any where we'll have to decide their personhood. I'm really hoping that when we do get there that we do better than your average Black Mirror episode. What's the point of imagining all these dystopias if we're just gonna do e-slavery anyway when we get to that point?

Roaches and flowers meet the criteria for life that I listed. I wasn't aware you were arguing sentience because the ongoing discussion was about them being alive. As far as sentience, it's the same as with everything. They're sentient like.

Maybe real isn't the best word to use, my point is that it's consciousness-like.

As far as AI, the public very underestimates imo how challenging it's going to be to create something that would merit rights. That said, yes there could come a point where manage to create such organisms but that's not comparable to Endless, like, at all imo.