Wow, Wuk Lamat is really single-handedly ruining the DT story...

[SableHahma]

'Alexandria' is not invading in the same way individuals of a nation don't unilaterally agree with the policies of their government. Sphene and Zoraal Ja were invading, and the feelings on the general public was seldom explored. While it was necessary to kill them, we did not need kill them AND THEN install Gulool Ja as the new king when we know Alexandria has their own governing entity. Worse, when Gulool Ja said he wanted no part in it, Wuk Lamat insisted he think more carefully about giving up control of an army. In reality though, he's just a child who answers to Wuk Lamat, so it comes off as Wuk Lamat insidiously encouraging him to remain king so she can effectively control their army too.

Solution None has been totally colonised by Tuliyollal; but it's okay, because the peace we believe in is one where all nations are united under one rule—oh wait, that's Garlemald.

Well, it's okay because Sphene technically wasn't 'real' and neither were the Endless, so it's okay to ignore the morals behind shutting them down because we don't consider them to be truly ali—wait, that's the Ascian M.O.

Well, it's okay, because the ends justify the means, and we have no reason whatsoever to believe that a world free of strife and sorrow, a world that only knows peace and joy, won't bring about severe societal collap—Ah. Scratch that one too.

Well...at least Sphene will come back in the patches and repent for her crimes so Wuk Lamat can fuck off out of a foreign land and go home.

You.....really don't understand how this stuff works do you? Sphene and Zoraal Ja were Queen and King of Alexandria. They are the will of the kingdom and they rule with absolute authority. If they declare war on Tural and launch an invasion then the two countries are at war. Nations do not go to war only when the collect nation agrees on it.

[ArcturusWhisper]

Just some additional thoughts:

'Alexandria' is not invading in the same way individuals of a nation don't unilaterally agree with the policies of their government.

Yeah, thus we didn't harm any other Alexandrians (well except the endless, but that is a whole other nightmare debate lol).

when we know Alexandria has their own governing entity

And their governing entity has not stopped Sphene. Again it comes back to, the Devs just have not thought things through. If this is a real country hell-bent on aggression, not allowing them to immediately be left to their own devices, right after their aggression has been thwarted, could be a very reasonable course of action. But the devs didn't make a coherent story, they desperately want players to like the Alexandrians, so they can't portray them as actively supporting Sphene's genocidal intentions and fighting against the authority we imposed; but they also want Sphene to be a beloved queen, so the people can't be portrayed as actively fighting against Sphene's grand vision. Now we are left in this binder, I don't think arguing the details of how all these SHOULD have played out is very useful. Depending on a lot of context, there are a lot of ways for it to be played out coherently, but the devs chose none of those options, and we are left with a story that doesn't make much sense.

[Remiferia]

You.....really don't understand how this stuff works do you? Sphene and Zoraal Ja were Queen and King of Alexandria. They are the will of the kingdom and they rule with absolute authority. If they declare war on Tural and launch an invasion then the two countries are at war. Nations do not go to war only when the collect nation agrees on it.

Collective punishment and humiliation are war crimes for a reason. What you are advocating for is the black/white belief that all under the Alexandrian banner deserve to be colonised and given a fake leader under the pretense that their previous leaders were 'acting out their will'. Ousting political leaders - be they monarchs or democratically elected - and replacing them with more agreeable talking heads is something that happens in the real world and it isn't 'Good'.

Sphene and Zoraal Ja have plotted to kill us and we have responded by installing a child leader and telling the general public to shut up when they try to object.

[Raven2014]

I literally cannot believe they wrote that Gulool Ja Ja has really united a continent with friendship and positive vibes alone. I was convinced that there's a "true history" that Wuk Lamat just didn't know. Then it turns out that yeah, he really did unite a continent by singing Kumbaya? WTF.

There's idealism, and then there's this. HW has a pretty idealistic story, where Aymeric basically has a pretty smooth ride with overhauling a thousand-year religious regime and also making peace with the dragons. But we didn't achieve it by only TALKING or being inspiring or whatnot! Vanquishing Thordan and Nidhogg is an extremely critical part in achieving this. The Tural story is just literally made for four-year-olds or something.

It does feel like the writing was suffered from some kind of influences and was butchered to pieces. Sometime I really want to give the writers the benefit of the doubt because it feels almost incomprehensible for a professional writers (even an average one) to write something this bad.

I think the most recent example is the Borderland movie. The games it's adapted from are all M+ rating, yet the movie went for a PG-13 rating instead and it just felt ... completely out of character.

It could be the case the original storyboard wasn't that bad because you see here and there sprinkle with potential. At the very least it would be on par with 2.0 world building. But it feels like "some power from above" took a look of the scripts and order "nah, you need to Disneyfied this more, and give us a Disney-like princess while you're at it 'cause everyone love themselves a Disney princess!"

I know I keep using this example whenever I talk about this topic but it can't be helped because it's the most obvious one: the cowboy duel with rubber bullet thing. Because"

- A writer who came up with a zone filled with cowboys and criminal would never think about using rubber bullet.

- Likewise, a writer who think rubber bullet is legit would probably be someone who wouldn't come up with the cowboy theme in the first place.

So the likely scenario was the story originally had an appropriate cowboy themes, than under some consultant's influence/pressure it was modified for the rubber bullet.

[SableHahma]

Collective punishment and humiliation are war crimes for a reason. What you are advocating for is the black/white belief that all under the Alexandrian banner deserve to be colonised and given a fake leader under the pretense that their previous leaders were 'acting out their will'. Ousting political leaders - be they monarchs or democratically elected - and replacing them with more agreeable talking heads is something that happens in the real world and it isn't 'Good'.

Sphene and Zoraal Ja have plotted to kill us and we have responded by installing a child leader and telling the general public to shut up when they try to object.

I mean, that's not at all what I was saying, but okay. I despise the way the Alexandrian situation was solved after the story ended. However, as much as I don't like it because it basically ends with Alexandria being turned into a protectorate of Tural I accept it because it makes sense to a degree. Fantasy is great, but I like it when I see something play out in a story and I could go, yeah I could see this happening in real life.

I think there are some very key things to remember. Wuk Lamat didn't just install some child. Zoraal Ja passed all of the codes needed to operate Everkeep or whatever onto Galool Ja. Galool Ja is also the only child of Alexandria's king, and thus as a kingdom is a natural choice for Alexandria's leader. It is super frustrating that he's just a child and not really fit to lead right now, but it does make sense. The other thing is that Wuk Lamat, as his aunt, and as the leader the winning nation essentially has her hand wrapped around Alexandria's throat. They are not in a position to argue terms with her.

My main issue with that whole scene is how it's a very serious matter glossed over with sunshine and puppy dogs, but what actually takes place is logical. It's one of the things that gives me pop for the patch story though. We might see some pushback from the Alexandrians, and Wuk Lamat might finally learn that you're can't rule solely from being kind and understanding.

[jameseoakes]

My main issue with that whole scene is how it's a very serious matter glossed over with sunshine and puppy dogs, but what actually takes place is logical. It's one of the things that gives me pop for the patch story though. We might see some pushback from the Alexandrians, and Wuk Lamat might finally learn that you're can't rule solely from being kind and understanding.

Was Wuk ever understanding with the Alexandrians, most of the time with them seemed to be very judegmental on how they live.

[Xieldras]

I mean, that's not at all what I was saying, but okay. I despise the way the Alexandrian situation was solved after the story ended. However, as much as I don't like it because it basically ends with Alexandria being turned into a protectorate of Tural I accept it because it makes sense to a degree. Fantasy is great, but I like it when I see something play out in a story and I could go, yeah I could see this happening in real life.

I think there are some very key things to remember. Wuk Lamat didn't just install some child. Zoraal Ja passed all of the codes needed to operate Everkeep or whatever onto Galool Ja. Galool Ja is also the only child of Alexandria's king, and thus as a kingdom is a natural choice for Alexandria's leader. It is super frustrating that he's just a child and not really fit to lead right now, but it does make sense. The other thing is that Wuk Lamat, as his aunt, and as the leader the winning nation essentially has her hand wrapped around Alexandria's throat. They are not in a position to argue terms with her.

My main issue with that whole scene is how it's a very serious matter glossed over with sunshine and puppy dogs, but what actually takes place is logical. It's one of the things that gives me pop for the patch story though. We might see some pushback from the Alexandrians, and Wuk Lamat might finally learn that you're can't rule solely from being kind and understanding.

What frustrates me the most about this situation is that we've spent one specific expansion fighting and denoucing Garlemald for doing exactly that with its conquered provinces, yet when the same thing happens with the perfect Turali society acting as a regent to a child ruler it is okay? There is none of the serious tone that such situation should warrant, instead it comes off as a good outcome because now the Alexandrians will start living the "correct way" (being quite tone deaf to the initial first zones of the Rites).

As for Gulool Ja, well he's merely an impressionable child that will grow to be a puppet ruler. And we put him there. Will the writing call us out, as we were not supposed to interact with the political affairs of others anymore?

I want 7.1+ to tackle these important topics (especially the one where you cannot just rule by kindness and understanding), but I don't think I have the faith required for that. We will have to see in the future.

[Fourbestintoner]

I believe all of Xak Tural is Alexandria's clay.
Yok Tural is a terrible backward nation where everyone is forced to wear the same uniform like Khmer Rouge.

[Remiferia]

I mean, that's not at all what I was saying, but okay. I despise the way the Alexandrian situation was solved after the story ended. However, as much as I don't like it because it basically ends with Alexandria being turned into a protectorate of Tural I accept it because it makes sense to a degree. Fantasy is great, but I like it when I see something play out in a story and I could go, yeah I could see this happening in real life.

I think there are some very key things to remember. Wuk Lamat didn't just install some child. Zoraal Ja passed all of the codes needed to operate Everkeep or whatever onto Galool Ja. Galool Ja is also the only child of Alexandria's king, and thus as a kingdom is a natural choice for Alexandria's leader. It is super frustrating that he's just a child and not really fit to lead right now, but it does make sense. The other thing is that Wuk Lamat, as his aunt, and as the leader the winning nation essentially has her hand wrapped around Alexandria's throat. They are not in a position to argue terms with her.

My main issue with that whole scene is how it's a very serious matter glossed over with sunshine and puppy dogs, but what actually takes place is logical. It's one of the things that gives me pop for the patch story though. We might see some pushback from the Alexandrians, and Wuk Lamat might finally learn that you're can't rule solely from being kind and understanding.

I mean yeah, my original post wasn't that it didn't make sense, it's that the actual actions and consequences were running directly counter to the idealistic themes presented in the story.

It is not soberly acknowledging that Wuk Lamat has had to make an actual tough policy decision as leader that doesn't paint her as a unanimously good person, and is now assuming a post where difficult decisions must be made that not everyone can happy with.

Is this truly what she dreamed of? Is this what she wants? Is she having any doubts? Is the reality of politics that there is no 'Good' and 'Bad', but a large gray area of personal truths like Sphene's strong will to keep her people going?

It doesn't matter, because the story is bending over backwards to paint everything she does as the morally and ethically correct course of action so that she doesn't have to face these icky hurdles of character growth and intrigue. Hiroi has no idea what he's done, so I have no faith he knows what he's doing.

[hydralus]

What frustrates me the most about this situation is that we've spent one specific expansion fighting and denoucing Garlemald for doing exactly that with its conquered provinces, yet when the same thing happens with the perfect Turali society acting as a regent to a child ruler it is okay? There is none of the serious tone that such situation should warrant, instead it comes off as a good outcome because now the Alexandrians will start living the "correct way" (being quite tone deaf to the initial first zones of the Rites).

As for Gulool Ja, well he's merely an impressionable child that will grow to be a puppet ruler. And we put him there. Will the writing call us out, as we were not supposed to interact with the political affairs of others anymore?

I want 7.1+ to tackle these important topics (especially the one where you cannot just rule by kindness and understanding), but I don't think I have the faith required for that. We will have to see in the future.

Technically Sphene put him there. She made his father king, and then he made sure the authority passed to his son. Sure, they could get angry about that and I wouldn't blame them, but saying we put him there is not true.