Wow, Wuk Lamat is really single-handedly ruining the DT story...

[Kennar]

Highly debatable. Without us, Kona likely won't success in bailing her out when she was kidnapped. They're likely won't be able to deal with Valigarmanda. And it's doubtful they'll be able to resolve the Mamook Ja issue as smoothly without the Scion's connection. By the end, the Scion pretty much throw the entire weight behind Wuk Lamak to make her success.

Even if you want to argue that it wasn't entirely necessary and Wuk would still make it to the finishing line through a bunch of convenience coincident, the spirit of the narrative is still troublesome. Remember that in the beginning we were shown in no uncertain term that Wuk had almost zero popular support while her brothers were extremely popular. Yet by the half-way mark after just a few limited interactions, we already decided Wuk is the best person to rule simply because she align with our view of the world order, while also declared (by Thranced) that Zoraal Ja can not be allowed to win no matter what despite him being overwhelmingly more popular among his people ... that's just incredibly hubris and out of character for the Scion to say the very least.

...

And like I said, the most jarring part of this is the fact it happens right after the 7.0 declaration when the Scion wanted to limited their influence, yet DT immediately threw us into the other extreme of the spectrum, that's why it's a consistency problem.

I completely agree with you about the consistancy problem. I found it awfully convinient that the same people in the capital who treated Lamat like she stank and had fleas suddenly loved her after we returned from the hinterlands of the empire. I guess my argument is that the writers wanted Lamat to win and were going to make that happen, no matter the cost to the narrative. At the very least, I was given one chance to voice my thoughts to Gulool Ja Ja and I said Lamat wasn't ready. If asked a second time when it was over, I would have said the same thing. From an ethical standpoint, all my character can do is throw up her hands and say, "I told you guys."

The easy narrative fix would have been Gulool Ja Ja hiring the Scions as advisors (which, remember, was their original role), and more explicitly saying that the succession rite is a more of test than an actual contest for the throne. There is plenty of historical precedent for similar situations, where newer, poorer, nations would hire Europeans set up schools, train up their militaries, direct manufacturing development--they needed experience, and there were people willing to provide it.

Oh, and Koana might have rescued Lamat if he had left his rubber dueling bullets at home and had a shoulder stock on his gun so he could properly aim the damn thing.

[lolnotacat]

The easy narrative fix would have been Gulool Ja Ja hiring the Scions as advisors (which, remember, was their original role), and more explicitly saying that the succession rite is a more of test than an actual contest for the throne. There is plenty of historical precedent for similar situations, where newer, poorer, nations would hire Europeans set up schools, train up their militaries, direct manufacturing development--they needed experience, and there were people willing to provide it.

You're not wrong, but you know damn well the "cultural consultants" wouldn't have allowed that because "muh colonialism". Which is why I think all of Tulilloyal seems so saccharine. There's very little conflict in such a "diverse" empire. Guess what, that rarely happens in real life, an even narratively in XIV, it doesn't happen. Look at all the conflict in Eorzea, and they have a common enemy to rally against. What's funny is Tulilloyal would've been better served with a little more realism.

Initially, Gulool Ja Ja should've conquered the continent from a combination of talk-no-jutsu and pure military force. Now that the Head of Reason is out of commission (he should've actually just been sleeping a lot, that would've been more subversive than him being dead. I called it from the moment I saw him), and Gulool Ja Ja advanced age, old inter-tribal strifes and differences are bubbling back up. He's now having a hard time keeping a lid on everything. Gulool Ja Ja sees the writing on the wall and uses that as the impetus for the rite of succession; trying to pass on the throne to the new age who could keep all the disparate groups together. But of course, we can't have strife in our Disney story.

[Regis_Paran]

(...) Even if you want to argue that it wasn't entirely necessary and Wuk would still make it to the finishing line through a bunch of convenience coincident, the spirit of the narrative is still troublesome. (...)

You are technically right in all points. But the thing is - Gulool Ja Ja made it very clear, that it would be his final decision if the winner of the contest is made Dawnservant. He also made it very clear that he wanted WL to rule. So with or without us, winning or losing, he would have put her on the throne somehow, anyway. If he never made those comments, if the contest wasn't rigged from the start, then we could argue if our support had any relevance.

Imo he just wanted us to make WL "winning" look somehow more legitimate. Make it look good for the masses. We were used and what's worse, we allowed it.

[Nyxs]

Do the Wachumequiqui Delivery quest for FSH.

Yes because most people care about the FSH quest. If this is where blue magic came from then the place should have people using it or references to it in the area outside a dumb quest. As the other person said every other place,culture and job has gotten it.

[ArcturusWhisper]

You're not wrong, but you know damn well the "cultural consultants" wouldn't have allowed that because "muh colonialism". Which is why I think all of Tulilloyal seems so saccharine. There's very little conflict in such a "diverse" empire. Guess what, that rarely happens in real life, an even narratively in XIV, it doesn't happen. Look at all the conflict in Eorzea, and they have a common enemy to rally against. What's funny is Tulilloyal would've been better served with a little more realism.

Initially, Gulool Ja Ja should've conquered the continent from a combination of talk-no-jutsu and pure military force. Now that the Head of Reason is out of commission (he should've actually just been sleeping a lot, that would've been more subversive than him being dead. I called it from the moment I saw him), and Gulool Ja Ja advanced age, old inter-tribal strifes and differences are bubbling back up. He's now having a hard time keeping a lid on everything. Gulool Ja Ja sees the writing on the wall and uses that as the impetus for the rite of succession; trying to pass on the throne to the new age who could keep all the disparate groups together. But of course, we can't have strife in our Disney story.

I literally cannot believe they wrote that Gulool Ja Ja has really united a continent with friendship and positive vibes alone. I was convinced that there's a "true history" that Wuk Lamat just didn't know. Then it turns out that yeah, he really did unite a continent by singing Kumbaya? WTF.

There's idealism, and then there's this. HW has a pretty idealistic story, where Aymeric basically has a pretty smooth ride with overhauling a thousand-year religious regime and also making peace with the dragons. But we didn't achieve it by only TALKING or being inspiring or whatnot! Vanquishing Thordan and Nidhogg is an extremely critical part in achieving this. The Tural story is just literally made for four-year-olds or something.

[BabySneed]

Do the Wachumequiqui Delivery quest for FSH.

I am aware that the 90-100 fisher quests are about a Whalaqee dude and yeah those quests were pretty fun and creative with their portrayal of blue magic, but it's also kind of messed up that after however many years of literally the only thing we knew about the New World being "here be native blue mage tribes", the expansion where we actually visit the New World only has Blue Mages in the fisher quests of all places
This was supposed to be our expansion Blue bros, we could've known what it was like to be on top just this once

[Xieldras]

I literally cannot believe they wrote that Gulool Ja Ja has really united a continent with friendship and positive vibes alone. I was convinced that there's a "true history" that Wuk Lamat just didn't know. Then it turns out that yeah, he really did unite a continent by singing Kumbaya? WTF.

There's idealism, and then there's this. HW has a pretty idealistic story, where Aymeric basically has a pretty smooth ride with overhauling a thousand-year religious regime and also making peace with the dragons. But we didn't achieve it by only TALKING or being inspiring or whatnot! Vanquishing Thordan and Nidhogg is an extremely critical part in achieving this. The Tural story is just literally made for four year olds or something.

Gulool Ja Ja ended a centuries-old blood feud with tacos and a party. Looks like Ishgard simply needed to step up their game and offer food with a mean rave to the dragons for peace to happen.

Seriously Yak Tel bashes you over the head so often with the Message of the expansion.

[Remiferia]

There's idealism, and then there's this.

It isn't Idealism, it's Hiroi being a hack.

Tural is laughably easy to unite because all of the tribes' differences can be settled by growing plants, giving seeds, making food and trading junk like the simpletons they all are. Wuk Lamat was able to follow his footsteps to the letter just by winging it.

There are no wider morals beyond getting from A to B. The 'idealism' falls apart when Solution Nine came into the picture. Now suddenly it's okay to shit on their culture, call it unnatural, look at people with disgust, kill their monarchs, install puppet leaders, announce that Solution Nine is under the 'protection' of Tuliyollal like we are the French 100-200 years ago, strike down any dissent from natives and walk out to the tune of Smile telling us we are heroes for it.

In a real world where there are at least two major ongoing conflicts right now, where the aggressors have invaded their neighbour under the pretense of 'enforcing peace', you'd think Vladimir Wuk's actions wouldn't be seen as the perfect idyllic choices they were made out to be.

I'm not sure the lead writer even understands what monster he's created with this, and he should be thankful that the wider FF14 community - who laud the narrative as much as they do - can't actually read to pick up on this.

[ArcturusWhisper]

It isn't Idealism, it's Hiroi being a hack.

Tural is laughably easy to unite because all of the tribes' differences can be settled by growing plants, giving seeds, making food and trading junk like the simpletons they all are. Wuk Lamat was able to follow his footsteps to the letter just by winging it.

There are no wider morals beyond getting from A to B. The 'idealism' falls apart when Solution Nine came into the picture. Now suddenly it's okay to shit on their culture, call it unnatural, look at people with disgust, kill their monarchs, install puppet leaders, announce that Solution Nine is under the 'protection' of Tuliyollal like we are the French 100-200 years ago, strike down any dissent from natives and walk out to the tune of Smile telling us we are heroes for it.

In a real world where there are at least two major ongoing conflicts right now, where the aggressors have invaded their neighbour under the pretense of 'enforcing peace', you'd think Vladimir Wuk's actions wouldn't be seen as the perfect idyllic choices they were made out to be.

I'm not sure the lead writer even understands what monster he's created with this, and he should be thankful that the wider FF14 community - who laud the narrative as much as they do - can't actually read to pick up on this.

While I get what you are trying to say, Alexandria is trying to genocide the Source, I am not crying too many tears for them. They are the aggressors. Don't want to get your monarch killed? Don't invade the Source.

And did we really shit on their culture that much? We are hit with constant barrage of in-your-face "that's their way of life, we shouldn't judge blah blah blah". But you are right that there is literally no discussion on the actual moral conflict of this. The Devs are cowards in shying away from actually debating the issue. We just pretend we are all fine with what Alexandria is doing except the invading source part, even though canonically it could be very in character for a lot of people to not be fine with this.

Maybe because I am personally not too fond of Solution 9, so I am really not very bothered by this in particular. It is actually surprisingly okay in the sense that at least we did have to kill their monarch to stop their aggression, instead of you know, sing Kumbaya and Sphene suddenly repents or whatever. THAT would have been vomit inducing.

[Remiferia]

While I get what you are trying to say, Alexandria is trying to genocide the Source, I am not crying too many tears for them. They are the aggressors. Don't want to get your monarch killed? Don't invade the Source.

And did we really shit on their culture that much? We are hit with constant barrage of in-your-face "that's their way of life, we shouldn't judge blah blah blah". But you are right that there is literally no discussion on the actual moral conflict of this. The Devs are cowards in shying away from actually debating the issue. We just pretend we are all fine with what Alexandria is doing except the invading source part, even though canonically it could be very in character for a lot of people to not be fine with this.

Maybe because I am personally not too fond of Solution 9, so I am really not very bothered by this in particular. It is actually surprisingly okay in the sense that at least we did have to kill their monarch to stop their aggression, instead of you know, sing Kumbaya and Sphene suddenly repents or whatever. THAT would have been vomit inducing.

'Alexandria' is not invading in the same way individuals of a nation don't unilaterally agree with the policies of their government. Sphene and Zoraal Ja were invading, and the feelings on the general public was seldom explored. While it was necessary to kill them, we did not need kill them AND THEN install Gulool Ja as the new king when we know Alexandria has their own governing entity. Worse, when Gulool Ja said he wanted no part in it, Wuk Lamat insisted he think more carefully about giving up control of an army. In reality though, he's just a child who answers to Wuk Lamat, so it comes off as Wuk Lamat insidiously encouraging him to remain king so she can effectively control their army too.

Solution None has been totally colonised by Tuliyollal; but it's okay, because the peace we believe in is one where all nations are united under one rule—oh wait, that's Garlemald.

Well, it's okay because Sphene technically wasn't 'real' and neither were the Endless, so it's okay to ignore the morals behind shutting them down because we don't consider them to be truly ali—wait, that's the Ascian M.O.

Well, it's okay, because the ends justify the means, and we have no reason whatsoever to believe that a world free of strife and sorrow, a world that only knows peace and joy, won't bring about severe societal collap—Ah. Scratch that one too.

Well...at least Sphene will come back in the patches and repent for her crimes so Wuk Lamat can fuck off out of a foreign land and go home.