Wow, Wuk Lamat is really single-handedly ruining the DT story...

[CamuiKushi]

Still though, I found the scene just as cheap and contrived as when the Domans showed up at exactly the right time to help the Ala Mhigans at the end of SB. It would would have worked better if there was some leadup to it. Perhaps we should have seen Koana sending representatives to all the major nations to petition them for help; watched him anxiously waiting for news, and when when all hope seemed lost, Vrtra arrives. It's an old story, but it works.

Reading your comment made me realise Alphinaud could still work. But it shouldn't have been to Radz-at-Han. It should have been Garlemald. Throughout the whole game we've had people coming to our rescue against Garlemald. It'd flip the script!
Alphi was there helping them rebuild during the patches. He was trying to get them to make trade agreements with other nations to rebuild.

Imagine how powerful it would have been for the remnants of the Garlean Empire to come save Tural during its darkest hour. It would have actually made Alphi and Ali's time there during the patches well spent.

Exactly this. Without what little presence of good written scions (Estinien) there is in this expansion, it frankly falls completely apart. The scions are already barely there, but the new characters fail at being compelling. People need to stop calling for removal of scions when all we'll be left with is Wuk Lamat. Start calling for good writing instead. This goes for new and OLD characters, scions being poorly written is merely a symptom of a much bigger issue. And frankly this became crystal clear already during the Zero patches. Some scions were not there at all, some barely there, and only a few actually had a central role (which is perfectly fine on its own). But once again the newly introduced character simply didn't deliver.

For me it's a matter of "If this is what they're going to do to the scions, I would rather they left them alone."

[Kennar]

But in DT, we do a double dipper and decide who deserved to rule and who doesn't, then execute it. I'm pretty sure it's that very same scene that you're citing in your argument, Thranced said the Scion will go back and against observe silently from the shadow. Excuse my French but "from the shadow" my arse, our foray in DT is anything but that. Not only we were straight up playing king maker, we did it from pretty much front and center. Remember that even before DT was released, the story premise already rub people the wrong way. Some already asked the question "why do we agree in participating in a rite of successor?" because that just how much out of character for the Scion was. And believe it or not, I actually defended the story back then. I told people that the invitation is probably just an excuse to start the story, there would probably some twist and turn that'll take the story in a different direction. And obviously I was wrong, not only they didn't change the direction, they're double down on it and the Scion basically became a paradogy of the CIA.

I agree with a lot of your points, but I must be contrarian about this.

I never felt like our characters did anything to put Lamat on the throne. We cheered her on, talked to the locals on her behalf (and then she took credit for our observations), and stayed out of the way of the other claimants. Gulool Ja Ja even said that this rite of succession was really more of a test to see who was fit to lead, and that he would not step down if he felt no one was ready. Ultimately, it was Gulool Ja Ja who made the decision. We were also invited to participate, everyone was fine with it, and there were no clandestine meetings or plans to install a puppet ruler. She was going to be Dawnservant with or without our help. That whole succession arc could have happened in a vacuum without our involvement, and nothing would have changed.

I still don't like this being our reason for going to the New World, though. I said in an older post that I was mad at the 6.5 story, and that still holds true. I didn't want my character to willingly get involved in a strange nation's politics, but there are interesting and dramatic ways to make that happen if it fits the larger story. That story has to be written for adults, though; it needs to be more complex, more fleshed out, and the characters need more depth and personality.

Reading your comment made me realise Alphinaud could still work. But it shouldn't have been to Radz-at-Han. It should have been Garlemald. Throughout the whole game we've had people coming to our rescue against Garlemald. It'd flip the script!
Alphi was there helping them rebuild during the patches. He was trying to get them to make trade agreements with other nations to rebuild.

Imagine how powerful it would have been for the remnants of the Garlean Empire to come save Tural during its darkest hour. It would have actually made Alphi and Ali's time there during the patches well spent.

I actually had a similar thought, but sadly, Garlemald will never be more than a smoldering pile of rubble.

[lolnotacat]

I still don't like this being our reason for going to the New World, though. I said in an older post that I was mad at the 6.5 story, and that still holds true. I didn't want my character to willingly get involved in a strange nation's politics, but there are interesting and dramatic ways to make that happen if it fits the larger story.

What annoyed me is that it wouldn't have taken a huge change to make the story fit better and give us time with the other characters.

- 6.5 Hits. Urianger introduces us to Koana, someone he befriended at Sharlayan.
- Koana heard about us through Urianger, and asks us for help finding his sister.
- He promises us and some friends (for duty support) room & board at an inn in Tuliyollal, free passage on his ship, and a passport to explore Tural.
- Cool, more adventure!
- We do some quests, do our dungeon, find Wuk being her Naruto self & save her from some kind of danger.
- We camp out that night before Koana and Wuk have to head back and prepare.
- Talk to Wuk a bit, find out she came to Eorzea, "The land of adventurers" to make a name for herself after hearing stories from travelers and Ketenramm.
- She confides in us a bit about her family, we find out he has an inferiority complex as she's always comparing herself to her brothers and father.
- *Stick a pin in that plot point for DT*
- 7.0 Drops
- We meet Gulool Ja Ja
- Duel him right away.
- Koana tells him we saved the star and what went down.
- Gulool Ja Ja takes a liking to us, asks us to observe all the participants the Rite of Succession. We can travel along with them, but we shouldn't interfere too much.

Granted this would require adjusting the first half of story a little bit, but this gives the story opportunities to show us other viewpoints and give the other characters time to breathe instead of nonstop love and peas.

[Bellybell]

I actually had a similar thought, but sadly, Garlemald will never be more than a smoldering pile of rubble.

The same is true for Doma even after we did help them rebuilt it. They'd just hail WoL as hero but hand waving us good luck and continue to mind their own business.

[ReynTime]

I think people should stop fixating on "they should let the scions go", which is a superficial issue. It's not the core problem. They are all our friends, if the devs have brains that allow them to write well, they can legitimately come adventuring with us if they like, since as you said they are "free people", why can't free people join us? And why can't they have new stories too? I mean the devs can choose not to, but that's not inevitable no matter what people claim. People who dislike these characters will like to not see them, that's totally understandable, but that's a separate issue. There are tons of characters I don't like seeing again, doesn't mean if the devs have chosen to they can't make more new stories for them, my taste notwithstanding.

The fundamental problem is that the devs no longer know how to write ANY characters and stories in a not "in-your-face" and superficial way. There are tons of new characters this expansion, I don't see this new cast of characters being written any better. No matter whether they write the scions or not, if they don't wrestle back the ability to actually WRITE, nothing will work.

Dawntrail doesn't prove shit for fuck about potentially replacing the Scions, because the few new characters they brought were designed to have their arcs rushed within 20 hours as opposed to the Scions who had development from 2.X to 5.3, some which didn't wrap up until 6.0.

[ArcturusWhisper]

Dawntrail doesn't prove shit for fuck about potentially replacing the Scions, because the few new characters they brought were designed to have their arcs rushed within 20 hours as opposed to the Scions who had development from 2.X to 5.3, some which didn't wrap up until 6.0.

It proves that if you are bad at writing, new characters you write will be bad too. If you are rushing arcs, it's part of the evidence that you didn't write well. Did I say anything else about "potential of replacing the Scions"? It can be done, it can be done well. It just cannot be done well by people who can't write. "Remove the scions" is not going to save bad writing. What do you think I was saying?

Edit: And since we are in this particular thread, I am going to add that, yeah, removing Wuk Lamat also probably won't save bad writing, if they can't figure out how to write other characters. They are just going to write other characters badly too!

[Papayatar]

Reading your comment made me realise Alphinaud could still work. But it shouldn't have been to Radz-at-Han. It should have been Garlemald. Throughout the whole game we've had people coming to our rescue against Garlemald. It'd flip the script!
Alphi was there helping them rebuild during the patches. He was trying to get them to make trade agreements with other nations to rebuild.

Imagine how powerful it would have been for the remnants of the Garlean Empire to come save Tural during its darkest hour. It would have actually made Alphi and Ali's time there during the patches well spent.

For me it's a matter of "If this is what they're going to do to the scions, I would rather they left them alone."

What would Garlemald have to offer though? They just ended a civil war and also was one of the areas that experienced the Final Days via blasphemies. And Right now they’re in a perpetual state of rebuilding, and what they offered to Radz-at-Han wasn’t military or troops either. Plus I doubt they’d want to help with some other nations conflict, they might have accepted our help but they’re still wary on that.

If they did anything with Tural it’d be a similar thing they have with Radz-at-Han a trade or goods to help rebuild Garlemald and their economy.

[Kennar]

What would Garlemald have to offer though? Right now they’re in a perpetual state of rebuilding, and what they offered to Radz-at-Han wasn’t military or troops either. Plus I doubt they’d want to help with some other nations conflict, they might have accepted our help but they’re still wary on that.

If they did anything with Tural it’d be a similar thing they have with Radz-at-Han a trade or goods to help rebuild Garlemald and their economy.

Your first statement sort of answers your question. Because the devs decided to make Garlemald (and also Doma) a field area instead of an actual city, it can never change. The Twins will always be looking for ways to help rebuild Garlemald because it will never be rebuilt. There is a huge amount of wasted story potential there that will never be explored because of a need for continuity for all players in that zone, regardless of MSQ progression.

[Papayatar]

Your first statement sort of answers your question. Because the devs decided to make Garlemald (and also Doma) a field area instead of an actual city, it can never change. The Twins will always be looking for ways to help rebuild Garlemald because it will never be rebuilt. There is a huge amount of wasted story potential there that will never be explored because of a need for continuity for all players in that zone, regardless of MSQ progression.

Even without the “forever rebuilding”, the last place I’d want to ask to help would be the place that, just finished a civil war and also dealt with another crisis on top of that. Toss inbetween them also coming to terms to accept help from “savages” and then that whole plot point where they felt we would use them being indebted to us against them in some way.

I’m not saying we shouldn’t explore Garlemald though, honestly I wish we did, and wish we got to see it pre-destruction too tbh. But they’re def not a good choice to pick as a last minute call to arms for Tural.

[Zaniel]

I think people should stop fixating on "they should let the scions go", which is a superficial issue. It's not the core problem. They are all our friends, if the devs have brains that allow them to write well, they can legitimately come adventuring with us if they like, since as you said they are "free people", why can't free people join us? And why can't they have new stories too? I mean the devs can choose not to, but that's not inevitable no matter what people claim. People who dislike these characters will like to not see them, that's totally understandable, but that's a separate issue. There are tons of characters I don't like seeing again, doesn't mean if the devs have chosen to they can't make more new stories for them, my taste notwithstanding.

The fundamental problem is that the devs no longer know how to write ANY characters and stories in a not "in-your-face" and superficial way. There are tons of new characters this expansion, I don't see this new cast of characters being written any better. No matter whether they write the scions or not, if they don't wrestle back the ability to actually WRITE, nothing will work.

Yup, exactly this, the problem is far more deeply rooted than any particular character or plot point. There is a fundamental breakdown in writing ability, editorial supervision and producer control.