M4S has officially been beaten without healers in week 2

[Raven2014]

Uh ... that's why I'm not comparing tank? But I can try if you want to push the narrative ...

I would say Tank is like the a government. A perfect tank would be like a perfect government that provide enough safety net to protect people from taking damage, and mitigate/compensate when people do have to take unavoidable damage.

For example, if a government provide universal healthcare, then it's possible to eliminate the need of health insurance.

Insurance is more than State Farm, Allstate, Progressive, Liberty Mutual, and etc. It's just a general thing that protects you from a possibility or eventuality.

Yeah, this is what I meant. Insurance - as a term - just mean you have a backup in case when and if something goes wrong, and if things never go wrong, it's quite normal to see the backup never get used.

[Turtledeluxe]

Insurance is more than State Farm, Allstate, Progressive, Liberty Mutual, and etc. It's just a general thing that protects you from a possibility or eventuality.

And the insurance in this instance literally isn't needed. So why are we talking about it?

Why are we saying it's a good thing that healers are part time relevant, additionally? Why is that good? And let's be honest..so are DPS. The game design is almost** entirely tank centric.

Tanks being government..OK that's bad? Why would we want any one role to be like the government....

[Lorika]

For example, if a government provide universal healthcare, then it's possible to eliminate the need of health insurance.

No. *Look at the debt of the universal healthcares of his country....."
No really no.

Joke aside, we have what all others country consider the best Universal Healthcare in the world.... But we still have health Insurance on the side for compensate for what this Universal Healthcare doesn't cover (almost everything teeth related, some very costly surgery etc..)

So, your analogy just prove that you need some other insurance on the side : healers.

[AmiableApkallu]

If healers are like insurance, and insurance doesn't always see use, then... can healers at least have something a touch more exciting than 112111111111 to pass the time?

[Shinku_Tachi]

And the insurance in this instance literally isn't needed. So why are we talking about it?

Why are we saying it's a good thing that healers are part time relevant, additionally? Why is that good? And let's be honest..so are DPS. The game design is entirely tank centric.

I didn't say any of this.

Raven said healers were insurance, you posted what you posted, I responded.

I stated my stance on the topic earlier in the thread, here:

Yep. At the end of the day, each role in the trinity needs a responsibility that cannot be done without it. ESPECIALLY in EX trials and savage raiding.

[Turtledeluxe]

I didn't say any of this.

Raven said healers were insurance, you posted what you posted, I responded.

I stated my stance on the topic earlier in the thread, here:

I don't understand why you responded to me then. To educate me that insurance saves you from more than I mentioned? Obviously?? Do I need to list out every possible case for you to understand my point? There is no basis for the comparison because this is a role discussion and the tank role has no real life comparison. It is game breaking. Nothing in reality breaks life to the point where insurance isn't necessary. That was my point.

And that's what we are dealing with here. It's less tanks are the government and more like tanks making your house flood immune (negating any possible need for flood insurance).

It's also not, as others have implied, just a healer issue or just a high end issue. It's also very much a casual issue. Tanks are a problem.

[Shinku_Tachi]

I don't understand why you responded to me then. To educate me that insurance saves you from more than I mentioned? Obviously?? Do I need to list out every possible case for you to understand my point? There is no basis for the comparison because this is a role discussion and the tank role has no real life comparison. It is game breaking. Nothing in reality breaks life to the point where insurance isn't necessary. That was my point.

And that's what we are dealing with here. It's less tanks are the government and more like tanks making your house flood immune (negating any possible need for flood insurance).

It's also not, as others have implied, just a healer issue or just a high end issue. It's also very much a casual issue. Tanks are a problem.

In an attempt to reel thing back in. That's all. It wasn't an attack on you. Apologies if it was taken that way.

The word insurance was stated, and instead of the term being taken for what it is on its own, things got derailed. To the point that we have people talking about insurance policies, single payer / universal healthcare, the government, and etc. None of that applies here.

[Raven2014]

It's more of an overall vision rather than the issue with specific role.

Remember back in 3.0 Yoshi was very clear about how he want a raid group to work:

- He wants spread responsibility.

- He wants everyone to do a little bit of everything.

- That's why healer is expected to DPS.

- That's why tank can heal.

- That's why DPS can mitigate.

At first, that sounds like a fair and ideal system, and tbf, for a long time people thought it was a refreshing and interesting take of the traditional trinity. But overtime, the inherent problems of this vision become more obvious.

Say, if we look at a raid requirements, it's basically broken down to two main requirements: required DPS, and required healing.

- Required DPS: start at the minimum but trend upward to infinitive. There is no such thing as wasted DPS.

- Required healing: start at the maximum (low skill low gears) but trend downward to a lower minimum (better skill better gears). Any healing more than necessary is wasted healing.

And now it's easy to see why that's a problem.

- No matter how much DPS a healer do, they don't take away from the other role because you can't never have too much DPS.

- But any healing/mitigation the party does will directly diminish the healer's important.


So I think it's more of a case healer is the inherent victim while tank is the inherent benefactor of the core vision of the design. That's why I don't think it's something you can fix with any amount of tweaking. It'll require Yoshi and the team to go back and discard the original vision of the trinity. And call me pessimist, I don't think that will ever happen in the life time of FF14.

[Turtledeluxe]

It's more of an overall vision rather than the issue with specific role.

Remember back in 3.0 Yoshi was very clear about how he want a raid group to work:

- He wants spread responsibility.

- He wants everyone to do a little bit of everything.

- That's why healer is expected to DPS.

- That's why tank can heal.

- That's why DPS can mitigate.

At first, that sounds like a fair and ideal system, and tbf, for a long time people thought it was a refreshing and interesting take of the traditional trinity. But overtime, the inherent problems of this vision become more obvious.

Say, if we look at a raid requirements, it's basically broken down to two main requirements: required DPS, and required healing.

- Required DPS: start at the minimum but trend upward to infinitive. There is no such thing as wasted DPS.

- Required healing: start at the maximum (low skill low gears) but trend downward to a lower minimum (better skill better gears). Any healing more than necessary is wasted healing.

And now it's easy to see why that's a problem.

- No matter how much DPS a healer do, they don't take away from the other role because you can't never have too much DPS.

- But any healing/mitigation the party does will directly diminish the healer's important.


So I think it's more of a case healer is the inherent victim while tank is the inherent benefactor of the core vision of the design. That's why I don't think it's something you can fix with any amount of tweaking. It'll require Yoshi and the team to go back and discard the original vision of the trinity. And call me pessimist, I don't think that will ever happen in the life time of FF14.

I disagree that you have to overturn the whole game to fix it. BLM has mitigation-- it isn't going to replace a tank forever, even in casual content. RPR has a self heal-- it doesn't make it a WHM. The game does not need to be overturned. Tanks and encounter design need to be overturned so it's not Final Fantasy XIV: Episode Tank all the time.

If the team isn't going to do that, then break every job. I want healing and tank level mitigation on every job. Every job should be able to solo bosses down with ease. There should be an all BLM run of every savage at release. And so on and so forth. Just break everything instead of doing it half assed.

Everyone's favorite tank Xenos was just talking about it in a video, how homogenization is the reason for the state of the trinity and jobs. But we aren't homogenized-- we are selectively homogenized. Just fully homogenize it.

[Silver-Strider]

I guess at this point -

1. To play with "normal" players that get hit often and need healing;
2. To play with all the players that don't want to run 1 Warrior, 3 Paladins, and 4 DPS that all heal. Players that want to play GNB, DRK, DRG, NIN, SAM, VPR, BLM, MCH, BRD.

While this video is absurd and indicative of terrible job balancing - mostly on behalf of WAR and PLD, it by no means healers have no role in the entire game.

No but much like a leaky pipe, it's better to deal with the issue now before it gets where the damage is irreparable. I mean, how long before they end up buffing those jobs to include more self healing? MNK didn't have Earth's Reply before DT but that was retroactively given to the job to be accessible by level 64, so now it has it available for every single Ultimate fight in the game. What's stopping SE from just throwing on Regens, Damage shields and whatever else they can in an attempt to "buff" those jobs? What's stopping Nature's Minne from getting an AoE heal effect attached to it to make BRD more attractive to play, especially since they did exactly that before, changing it from a ST heal buff to an AoE heal buff; throwing a heal on top of that just seems like the nature next step in its progression. People have been making a plethora of suggestions for DRK, including adding heals to its toolkits, be it on TBN, Dark Mind, etc. that would all be reasonable in a vacuum but on the whole are detrimental to healer gameplay. It's only a matter of time before we get a Healing Flamethrower on MCH