Feedback: Dawntrail MSQ dungeon difficulty

[Elfidan]

Yeah, that's just lazy. It's led us to a game full of content that's just the same thing over and over with new paint.

[Banggugyangu]

Yeah, that's just lazy. It's led us to a game full of content that's just the same thing over and over with new paint.

It's not "Lazy".... it's "fast".... If they didn't have this formula, they would either need about 2x the staff working just on dungeons each patch or we would have half the dungeons coming out. One makes sub price go up, the other makes content slower. Which do you want?

[Elfidan]

That's a dumb question. Quality over quantity is always priority. Square should in fact hire more people for the team that's been the longest running success in their history and as consumers and fans we should be outraged that they haven't. Imagine being happy with a product that doesn't fulfill your need or desire just because you get more of it for the same or a bit less. Living like a king in a house made of cardboard is a fool's paradise.

[Banggugyangu]

That's a dumb question. Quality over quantity is always priority. Square should in fact hire more people for the team that's been the longest running success in their history and as consumers and fans we should be outraged that they haven't. Imagine being happy with a product that doesn't fulfill your need or desire just because you get more of it for the same or a bit less. Living like a king in a house made of cardboard is a fool's paradise.

I'm fine with dungeons being copy/paste, so long as raids have variation, and they do. I'd rather the devs spend that quality manpower on the raids than dungeons any day. Furthermore, the speed of production isn't the only reason why Yoshi-P has stated they're not changing up that formula on dungeons. It also allows for a fairly predictable experience for the players. You can queue up for a leveling roulette and expect a fairly regular time investment, which can't be said for the higher end raids or criterion.

[Elfidan]

I'm fine with dungeons being copy/paste, so long as raids have variation, and they do.

I'm glad your happy with the same old thing on repeat but it's been ten years and some variety would be welcome. Not just another obscure game mode with terrible reward structures and accessibility issues.

I'd rather the devs spend that quality manpower on the raids than dungeons any day.

This is a strange point of view to me as the dungeons are the literal bread and butter of the game. You spend the most time inside them and the most progress is made inside of them. You do them far more often then raids and you seek out far more rewards from them then their higher tier counter parts.

Furthermore, the speed of production isn't the only reason why Yoshi-P has stated they're not changing up that formula on dungeons. It also allows for a fairly predictable experience for the players. You can queue up for a leveling roulette and expect a fairly regular time investment, which can't be said for the higher end raids or criterion.

I'm sorry what? Are you comparing high end content to dungeons as a point of contention as to why variation is bad? Instead let's compare Variant to regular dungeons. They are very much similar in terms of investment. The proof of concept that more interesting dungeons are feasible is there. Why is time investment such a metric anyway? Eighty percent or better of the player base spend the majority of their time standing in town making sure the pavement doesn't escape. Time investment indeed.

Dipping into the raid commentary let me ask you how does a room with a boss and just a string of mechs you need to memorize in any way interesting or innovative? Most of those are just repeat and reuse as well. Using the term raid to describe those fights has been kind of meme like since they changed them into a dude in a big square or circle back in Stormblood.

[Banggugyangu]

I'm glad your happy with the same old thing on repeat but it's been ten years and some variety would be welcome. Not just another obscure game mode with terrible reward structures and accessibility issues.

This is a strange point of view to me as the dungeons are the literal bread and butter of the game. You spend the most time inside them and the most progress is made inside of them. You do them far more often then raids and you seek out far more rewards from them then their higher tier counter parts.

I'm sorry what? Are you comparing high end content to dungeons as a point of contention as to why variation is bad? Instead let's compare Variant to regular dungeons. They are very much similar in terms of investment. The proof of concept that more interesting dungeons are feasible is there. Why is time investment such a metric anyway? Eighty percent or better of the player base spend the majority of their time standing in town making sure the pavement doesn't escape. Time investment indeed.

Dipping into the raid commentary let me ask you how does a room with a boss and just a string of mechs you need to memorize in any way interesting or innovative? Most of those are just repeat and reuse as well. Using the term raid to describe those fights has been kind of meme like since they changed them into a dude in a big square or circle back in Stormblood.

I...DO NOT spend the majority of my time in dungeons. I'd estimate about 20% of my time in game is spent in dungeons. On the contrary, about 60% of my time in game is in raids. Whether this is normal or savage is a toss-up, but I spend far more time in raids than I do dungeons. Typically, unless going through an expansion's MSQ, I am only in dungeons for 2-3 roulettes at most, per day.

And yes... I'm comparing dungeons to raids in terms of queue expectation. A dungeon is fairly safely estimated as a 15-20 minute affair. A raid is typically shorter, but that greatly depends on how well those with you know the fight, and how out-geared everyone is for the fight. If you get Alexander or Omega in your raid roulette, then you're probably in for a ~10 minute fight. If it's Arcadion, there's currently a real possibility of a lockout ordeal. For trials, it's a similar situation. For alliance raids, CT is almost guaranteed to be 20 minutes at the absolute most, but Dun Scathe, Orbonne, and Nier are more likely to be 35 minutes+. Notice how I'm not talking about savage or ex trials? Normal content isn't "high end content".... I'm talking about what players can expect when queueing up in a roulette, and that was the point that Yoshi-P made.... Also... that statement wasn't ME comparing them, it was Yoshi-P comparing them.... You know... the Producer and Director of the game you're playing?

[Elfidan]

I...DO NOT spend the majority of my time in dungeons. I'd estimate about 20% of my time in game is spent in dungeons. On the contrary, about 60% of my time in game is in raids. Whether this is normal or savage is a toss-up, but I spend far more time in raids than I do dungeons. Typically, unless going through an expansion's MSQ, I am only in dungeons for 2-3 roulettes at most, per day.

I feel like everyone spends more time in dungeons than then imagine they do. From gathering gear to leveling alts to farming tomes it's actually a lot more than you would think. If you live in raid post story for amusement that's cool but not really the average players day. The point I'm making is if something is the lifeblood and primary content of the game like it or not it deserves more than it's getting. Excusing the cruise control content creation this game has been on for almost a decade feels bad.

And yes... I'm comparing dungeons to raids in terms of queue expectation. A dungeon is fairly safely estimated as a 15-20 minute affair. A raid is typically shorter, but that greatly depends on how well those with you know the fight, and how out-geared everyone is for the fight. If you get Alexander or Omega in your raid roulette, then you're probably in for a ~10 minute fight. If it's Arcadion, there's currently a real possibility of a lockout ordeal. For trials, it's a similar situation. For alliance raids, CT is almost guaranteed to be 20 minutes at the absolute most, but Dun Scathe, Orbonne, and Nier are more likely to be 35 minutes+.

So, here's the thing. If you're comparing something that takes significantly more time I.E. fifteen to twenty minutes to ten minutes, you're making a bad slimily. I'm also confused about how you've had enough bad alliance raids outside CT to consider them in the sample size. It's really uncommon to have that many wipes on any of the alliance raids since Endwalker. Bad alliance runs have been the exception not the rule for a very long time now. And we're on the same world so it's not like there's some data center disconnect.

Notice how I'm not talking about savage or ex trials? Normal content isn't "high end content".... I'm talking about what players can expect when queueing up in a roulette, and that was the point that Yoshi-P made.... Also... that statement wasn't ME comparing them, it was Yoshi-P comparing them.... You know... the Producer and Director of the game you're playing?

I would consider even normal raids higher end content than dungeons and trials for the simple fact that there is a barrier to entry that you do not simple reach in the course of leveling. You will need to buy/farm/tome purchase gear for entry purposes. The Reward is also gear that is higher level than what is necessary for normal content. I can understand how you might feel differently if your clearing savage extremes(on curve) and Ultimates routinely.
Yoshi is just a man and any man can make mistakes or be wrong about things it's why we don't let single people make decisions even groups can make the wrong decision which happens routinely in real life. See a problem say something is pretty much a default for good consumerism.

[Banggugyangu]

I feel like everyone spends more time in dungeons than then imagine they do. From gathering gear to leveling alts to farming tomes it's actually a lot more than you would think. ......

Quote truncated for character limit.

First off, I'm not in the minority of players. Perhaps I'm in the minority of players you encounter, but I would argue familiarity bias there. Secondly, I assume you meand "simile" and not "slimily"? Progressing with that assumption, I would appreciate it if you would more thoroughly read what was written before responding. I'm not comparing the activity time frames with one another, as that would be a terribly flawed comparison. What I'm comparing, which is also a comparison made by Yoshi-P... again...., is the consistency of time investment. To repeat myself, when you enter a dungeon roulette, you expect around 15-20 minutes, and easily 95%+ of the time, it will be around 15-20 minutes. When you enter a raid roulette, you can't make an accurate time expectation because there's so much variance.

Finally, regarding normal raids.... you do not need to 'buy/farm/tom purchase gear' for them. The entry iLVL for all 4 arcadion raids is 685. You can easily clear them all with the iLVL690 JSE you can get for free from the vendor upon reaching the last chapter of the MSQ.

Also, you're making a strange assumption.... I'm not saying Yoshi-P is "correct" in saying that. I'm saying that he gave those two points as the reason that they will not be changing their formula for dungeons. Right or wrong, that's simply the fact of the matter.

[Elfidan]

First off, I'm not in the minority of players. Perhaps I'm in the minority of players you encounter, but I would argue familiarity bias there. Secondly, I assume you meand "simile" and not "slimily"?

First adding words now grammar police. Interesting how you flail rather than approach points. I assume you meant mean but were too excited with your find. Higher end players are indeed the minority. If you are running Savage etc. you are in the minority congratulations.

Progressing with that assumption, I would appreciate it if you would more thoroughly read what was written before responding. I'm not comparing the activity time frames with one another, as that would be a terribly flawed comparison. What I'm comparing, which is also a comparison made by Yoshi-P... again...., is the consistency of time investment.

You're dancing in circles here. I didn't bring up the time frames you did. So, they became a part of your comparison. Perhaps you should express yourself in a more intelligible fashion? If time frames and time investments are separate in your mind, I'm not sure how to help you. If the argument is that a ten minute and twenty-minute time investment are comparable I disagree as one is twice the length of the other. In terms of normal raid roulette consistency, they are in fact very consistent. When you solo queue everything bias isn't really a thing. I seldom see the same people ever.

To repeat myself, when you enter a dungeon roulette, you expect around 15-20 minutes, and easily 95%+ of the time, it will be around 15-20 minutes. When you enter a raid roulette, you can't make an accurate time expectation because there's so much variance.

It's really not that varied post initial week clears.

Finally, regarding normal raids.... you do not need to 'buy/farm/tom purchase gear' for them. The entry iLVL for all 4 arcadion raids is 685. You can easily clear them all with the iLVL690 JSE you can get for free from the vendor upon reaching the last chapter of the MSQ.

I'm sure you forgot that the right side of your equipment exists, but the item level is an Average and 690 in half of it does not account for more than half and the entry terms are 685 so my commentary of farming entry items via dungeon activity stands. For example, my warrior is in said 690 gear and I have yet to make an effort to gear it as I am doing that for other roles and its item level stands at 666 with a few greed accessories I have procured during said dungeon activities. So much for that idea.

Also, you're making a strange assumption.... I'm not saying Yoshi-P is "correct" in saying that. I'm saying that he gave those two points as the reason that they will not be changing their formula for dungeons. Right or wrong, that's simply the fact of the matter.

Change comes from a need, or a demand and I am pushing both. I don't really care what his opinion is because while he is the producer and director, he is not the target consumer. Any good salesman knows you go where the customers need you to if you want to make money. If nobody ever presented an opinion of dissent to the operating dogma of a company, there would never be change or variety and that is indeed my goal.

[Banggugyangu]

/sigh.... Truncating all quotes due to char limit

First adding words now grammar police. ...

My reason for pointing that out was to confirm that my assumption was correct... Did you notice how I followed it up with "progressing with that assumption..."? But sure.. ad hominem away, my dude...

You're dancing in circles here. ...

Either reading comprehension isn't your thing, or you're actively trolling... "Time frames and time investment" are indeed the same thing.... Know what's different? Time Investment EXPECTATION.... I stated that multiple times in my previous response.... It's not about how long the activity should take... it's about how realistically a player can EXPECT it to take... The difference with dungeons and raids is that a player can EXPECT a dungeon roulette to take 15-20 minutes and almost always be correct... With raid roulettes, you cannot expect a certain time investment because there's simply too much variance... Ignore the number... focus on the concept....

It's really not that varied post initial week clears.

When's the last time you ran Dun Scaith? I get it fairly frequently in roulette.... it's a total toss up. I could have it take 15 minutes or 45 minutes, and on average it's closer to the latter. Crystal tower, with the exception of WoD, will almost always be about 15 minutes. Nier raids just take forever... 35+ minutes without issues... 45+ with... If you get anything other than Crystal Tower, it's a total toss-up for how long it's going to take.

I'm sure you forgot that the right side of your equipment exists, ...

I'll concede this point as I did forget that the right side needs addressing. I typically already have tome accessories before I get other additional jobs up to the level cap, and my initial job to level cap I always kit out with EX accessories before raid drops.

Change comes from a need, or a demand and I am pushing both....

He plays his own game.... he's a part of the target consumer as much as any player. Furthermore, I'll trust the wisdom of the man who was primarily responsible for the success of the game when it was a total dumpster fire over some random dude typing on his keyboard in a forum.