Pld buff or War nerf in 1.22?

[YuriSan]

You like chicks in turtles? Wat.

This:


And this:


I likey

[Zumi]

Unless the dps difference between war and pld is balanced people would always go for the one that does higher dps. Most people do not care if its easier to keep a pld alive because a skilled whm won't have a problem either way. In fact it can be harder to keep a pld alive due to its lower hp pool. What it comes down to is people wanting the run to go faster trash and boss so therefore people pick war. Its gotten to the point that people won't invite a pld to tank even ifrit because they rather have a war. The other benefit to war is they hold hate much better then a pld due to the fact that most enmity in this game is gained by doing damage, meaning your dps can go much harder on the boss and not have to hold back when you have a war instead of a pld.

SE doesn't seem to realize they need to balance tank damage and aoe tanking ability or one will always be preferred.

[Zantetsuken]

I'm pretty sure this'll cause problems down the road, as it is "Fodder tank vs boss tank". Niche design is bad enough for DPS, and it's even worse when applied to tanks.

I'd vote against reducing accuracy and more towards increasing damage taken or reducing something else.

I may be for it if the acc reduction is a set amount and is a percentage instead of a flat number. Leaving the reduction as a flat number would make accuracy a hot commodity for gearing WAR and allows one to circumvent the design by stacking accuracy. Then again, reducing accuracy messes with the intent behind the ability.
I'd rather both be equal in tanking and be acceptable choices for the tank role. If Lina Lux the Warrior and Duelle Urelle the Paladin can tank the content at a similar capacity, and Lina Lux is on when invites are going out, then Lina should get the spot. Not get told "sorry, we're waiting for Duelle to log on because he's a PLD".

I'm building a party, there is a WAR and a PLD seeking... I could either invite the PLD, who will take slightly less curing to keep alive, or I could invite a WAR who will tank 90% as well, keep hate just as well and act as a full-fledged DD on top of it all. The only thing it will take is a few extra cures from a WHM to make up the difference.

Why would I ever invite the PLD?

And isn't that the problem that we are dealing with atm?

So the solutions are:

• Make PLD a better tank - Not really needed.. PLD does a great job of holding hate and has good survivability. Hard to improve on that.
• Make WAR a weaker tank - Might be an option, but the Dev's have said that they want WAR to have the highest HP and raw damage in the game. So unless they drop WAR's DEF or Emnity generation, it isn't gonna happen.
• Make PLD a better DD while tanking A bad idea that just muddies the water between PLD and WAR. Jobs are supposed to stress differences in roles.
• Make WAR a worse DD while tanking - The most viable option. Force WAR to choose between being a DD or tank via their abilities. This is already part of WAR's current design. Many of their offensive abilities automatically remove their defensive abilities.

It seems obvious to me that the PLD-WAR tanking tweaks should take direction from the 4th option as that is the current path the Dev's have chosen for it.

Reducing Accuracy while tanking seems to be a perfectly reasonable fix for WAR. But if there is one thing I know, ppl hate all nerf with no benefit. So maybe try this:

MRD:

• Rampage: Increases your attack speed, but (significantly) reduces your attack power for each physical attack against you, and restores HP for each critical hit you land. Effect fades upon moving or reuse. Cannot be used simultaneously with Berserk.
• Berzerk: Increases your attack power and (significantly) reduces your defense with each successful attack. Effect resets upon taking damage and fades upon reuse. Cannot be used simultaneously with Rampage

[Firon]

I'm building a party, there is a WAR and a PLD seeking... I could either invite the PLD, who will take slightly less curing to keep alive, or I could invite a WAR who will tank 90% as well, keep hate just as well and act as a full-fledged DD on top of it all. The only thing it will take is a few extra cures from a WHM to make up the difference.

Why would I ever invite the PLD?

And isn't that the problem that we are dealing with atm?

So the solutions are:

• Make PLD a better tank - Not really needed.. PLD does a great job of holding hate and has good survivability. Hard to improve on that.
• Make WAR a weaker tank - Might be an option, but the Dev's have said that they want WAR to have the highest HP and raw damage in the game. So unless they drop WAR's DEF or Emnity generation, it isn't gonna happen.
• Make PLD a better DD while tanking A bad idea that just muddies the water between PLD and WAR. Jobs are supposed to stress differences in roles.
• Make WAR a worse DD while tanking - Another viable option. Force WAR to choose between being a DD or tank via their abilities. This is already part of WAR's current design. Many of their offensive abilities automatically remove their defensive abilities.

It seems obvious to me that the PLD-WAR tanking tweaks should take direction from the 4th option as that is the current path the Dev's have chosen for it.

Reducing Accuracy while tanking seems to be a perfectly reasonable fix for WAR. But if there is one thing I know, ppl hate all nerf with no benefit. So maybe try this:

MRD:

• Rampage: Increases your attack speed but reduces your attack power (significantly) for each physical attack against you, and restores HP for each critical hit you land. Effect fades upon moving or reuse. Cannot be used simultaneously with Berserk.
• Berzerk: Increases your attack power and speed (slightly) and reduces your defense with each successful attack. Effect resets upon taking damage and fades upon reuse. Cannot be used simultaneously with Rampage

Zen i agree with a lot of what you are saying but pld is not a good dmg reducing tank war does that better also. A war can parry one time during a fight and a pld could block 3 times the war still takes less dmg.

Edit: also instead of acc loss they could just do an attack down effect. How like Defender worked in XI. Rampage does the same thing but cuts dps in half.

[zergasaur]

PLD doesn't compare to MRD.

1: All that physical immunity with little life, but all the NMs killer moves are non-Physical = PLD useless.
2: Cant hold hate as well as WAR: PLD cant do any dmg AE, Only Taunt. And Damage always wins over Taunts. War has collusion which when used on a BLM or whatever gets insane hate. Also they have Steel Cyclone, high dmg AE even more hate.

So all in all it sums up to: War does more damage, gets more Enmity, has more life, can wear the same gear as PLD.
PLd = useless.

I've said this before: Give paladin 700 more life ( 200 less than War ) make one of his skills block sometihng other than physical...and a fast Cooldown low dmg enmity generating AE. And get rid of casting time on heal. Done. So easy....PLD is good again.

[Zantetsuken]

Zen i agree with a lot of what you are saying but pld is not a good dmg reducing tank war does that better also. A war can parry one time during a fight and a pld could block 3 times the war still takes less dmg.

Edit: also instead of acc loss they could just do an attack down effect. How like Defender worked in XI. Rampage does the same thing but cuts dps in half.

You quoted me before I made a quick edit. But yeah, Attack down is a good solution.

Also, you are 100% correct about the parry/block issue. That needs to be addressed in this whole fix.

PLD doesn't compare to MRD.

1: All that physical immunity with little life, but all the NMs killer moves are non-Physical = PLD useless.
2: Cant hold hate as well as WAR: PLD cant do any dmg AE, Only Taunt. And Damage always wins over Taunts. War has collusion which when used on a BLM or whatever gets insane hate. Also they have Steel Cyclone, high dmg AE even more hate.

So all in all it sums up to: War does more damage, gets more Enmity, has more life, can wear the same gear as PLD.
PLd = useless.

I've said this before: Give paladin 700 more life ( 200 less than War ) make one of his skills block sometihng other than physical...and a fast Cooldown low dmg enmity generating AE. And get rid of casting time on heal. Done. So easy....PLD is good again.

Good suggestions. I was thinking earlier that PLD could gain additional def vs Spells and Elemental attacks via Divine Veil or Tempered Will. Let MRD be the king of Physical tanking if need be, Let PLD be able to handle spells, enfeelbing, etc..

To go with that, Enduring March should lose its general enfeebling resistance bonus.

I still think that Rage of Halone should generate a crap-ton of enmity when combo'd.

[Nullie]

Wow nice way to miss the point, the fact is that WAR acts as both a main tank and a DD at the same time, and thats why people choose them over PLD.

Nobody is saying stop WAR from tanking we are simply saying if a WAR chooses to tank they should take a hit in the amount of damage they do, now you could argue that the reason WAR keeps hate is down to its DPS output but thats what needs to be fixed, because unless it is people will continue to favour WAR.

No, I think you misunderstood. Or you did not see my first post in this thread where I said I am in favor of paladins being buffed up to standards or even being reworked. That post is more directed to people yelling "nerfnerfnerf." If both are implemented that is what is going to happen. Take away the Warriors damage and we have another weak low accuracy class that has a low delay on their auto attack, can't store tp and won't be able to hold hate. What kind of tank can't hold hate? Take away their defense and we have a weaker version of dragoon or monk which in turn will be a damage dealer who can't use 3/5 skills that a warrior has been given.

At the current pace, this will always favor one class over the other and then we will be in the same situation with Warrior being on the other side. I feel like warrior is a well balanced class and gives us options. I do not feel like Paladin should be the only tank class in the game and I think they should be better than what they are now. To me, every class took a step forward with their jobs while Paladin took a step back.

And yes, people are saying. You may not be, but other people definitely are.

[Peptaru]

What is the timer on foresight? What is the timer on aegis boon?
Can you parry or block magical damage?
Do you take damage from attacks blocked with aegis boon?
How many parry/partial parry do you get without foresight? I hardly see any.... Idk why parry is referenced so often.
I'd reference Vengeance way more often if trying to make the mitigation point.....

[Firon]

People keep saying war Dps is not good but i haven't seen anyone dps on mrd normally. I would like see an mrd's parser on a Boss fight but it wont happen cause its either blm or mnk >_>

[Zantetsuken]

@ Nullie

Turning PLD into a better DD is NOT how to fix this.