Rphys: why slow walk casts (ala pvp) aren't a solution

[Valence]

While I do agree that a lot of the pvp stuff can be a great model for job identity in pve, I don't understand the obsession some posters have fancied themselves with about the pvp slow walk casts on rpve phys. It sounds like a great idea until you dig a little further and actually try and see how it would behave.

1) This works in pvp for the very reason that it has an actual reason to be there: to make sure those roles are less mobile and get caught up by melees easily (caveat, it's only on the filler combo, which is the least important part of the role and can be ignored if required anyway, so even in pvp I'm not convinced about them, they just make you want to cast even less, exactly like casters btw). In pve, saying we need to bring this to the system without any actual reason beyond "give it constraints not like casters but like casters so we can remove the mobility tax", will not fix anything.

2) Whether you can move very slow or not at all will not help you dodge mechanics or move to a position you need to be at more than normal casts. Try doing this when you're afflicted by Heavy and see if you still find it funny. It's no different than a normal cast with the only difference being that they're actually harder to cancel because moving doesn't insta stop the cast, nor can you slidecast with them. Guess what? Slow casts from pvp would probably suck in pve.

3) With the current pve sets, only DNC would be able to perhaps accommodate slow walking casts (where it doesn't even have them in pvp, the irony). BRD and MCH are absolutely unable to even consider it, because BRD is literally riddled by timing issues that are completely incompatible with them (song timings, song transitions, army's muse...), while MCH is filled to the brim with double weaves everywhere: where do you find the room to even insert walking casts?? And even then, all 3 rphys jobs are full double weaves during their whole burst windows.

Ultimately I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but it wouldn't work in the current model at all, and whatever model they would work in, it would require a complete rework of absolutely everything.

[Valence]

Addendum: adding normal or walking casts to only a handful of target abilities like tools on MCH would not make rphys cast time constrained at all, no more than SMN or SAM already are. Adding them everywhere would just turn them into actual casters, but perhaps the idea was to remove rphys as a role entirely?

[Connor]

I mean, I’d love Bard to be able to cast its songs again instead of just making them abilities at the very least. But as you mentioned there’s no way for that to actually happen without like a major rework of the entire phys ranged role. I suppose they could make it that like, you only have walking casts in Paeon since you’ll have the haste bonus to make them shorter, but then at that point it’s like ‘what’s even the point?’ lol

At this point though, I’d honestly accept if they did just rework the role from the ground up lol. Including reevaluating what direction they want to go with Machinist (i.e giving it dps actually commensurate with being a ‘selfish’ dps or giving it buffs/debuffs/support). Again I highly doubt we’ll see anything to that extent, maybe some potency buffs and a new 120-second raid buff button in 8.0 (follow-up attack sold separately)

[CKNovel]

I think it can work but won't be the solution. The problem is that even if you make ranged walk, they'd just have to move earlier, which they can do.

But Physical range can't remain the casterless caster / meleeless melees.
They could be the fastest APM jobs along Ninja and Viper (Who pretty much have a huge ranged advantage as well) while also having heavy support tools. They can strike from anywhere but must always have a sustained DPS.

[Tunda]

I mean, I’d love Bard to be able to cast its songs again instead of just making them abilities at the very least. But as you mentioned there’s no way for that to actually happen without like a major rework of the entire phys ranged role. I suppose they could make it that like, you only have walking casts in Paeon since you’ll have the haste bonus to make them shorter, but then at that point it’s like ‘what’s even the point?’ lol

At this point though, I’d honestly accept if they did just rework the role from the ground up lol. Including reevaluating what direction they want to go with Machinist (i.e giving it dps actually commensurate with being a ‘selfish’ dps or giving it buffs/debuffs/support). Again I highly doubt we’ll see anything to that extent, maybe some potency buffs and a new 120-second raid buff button in 8.0 (follow-up attack sold separately)

Casting song is an option but why not like rythim games?

Mini rhythm game for bard would be cool to see

[Supersnow845]

Walking casts I think are a good identity baseline for the phys ranged (as right now their “identity” is they don’t have one as they don’t have any constraints) but I can also see people arguing “well walking casts you can still move so they still need a ranged movement tax” like people currently argue

BRD as a job I think is perfectly fine complexity wise (actual design wise not so much but that’s beside the point), give it 40% uptime on walking casts and you could easily stick it around NIN level. DNC and MCH meanwhile are both phys ranged and arguably too easily especially since last dance, finishing move and dance of the dawn basically made DNC’s burst totally static. They are jobs I strongly believe actually need to be reworked (BRD needs to be reworked for its identity and disjointed kit but it’s complexity is spot on) and given something alongside walking casts

[WeakestZenosEnjoyer]

Addendum: adding normal or walking casts to only a handful of target abilities like tools on MCH would not make rphys cast time constrained at all, no more than SMN or SAM already are.

If it means Machinist gets to do Samurai damage I'd take it,

the "ranged tax" has obliterated the viability of an entire subrole and something has to give, though I agree bow mage and gun mage isn't really a good direction.

[Pyitoechito]

I'm neutral on the discussion of ranged phys needing cast times or not, but it did give me a dangerous idea. What if all ranged phys had an oGCD stance toggle that functioned somewhat like old Gauss Barrel and Wanderer's Minuet. It increases damage output, but instead of adding cast times to all GCDs it simply caps movement speed in-combat (unless they receive a movement speed buff like Sprint or Expedience, which disables the movement penalty for the duration). It'd be like dancing around old cleric stance and wouldn't require any reworks to the jobs at present because it doesn't remove any weaving windows aside from turning the stance on/off. It wouldn't have to be as slow as walking speed, but it could be.

I'm not saying ranged phys needs anything like this. It's just an idea.

[aiqa]

dance of the dawn basically made DNC’s burst totally static

DNC burtst is not any more static then before as far as I can see. You still have all your saved up feathers, so lots potential Fan Dance 3 procs. And with the addition of Last Dance, your Standard Step cooldown constantly drifting, which changes your burst window just as much as the old Saber Dance with RNGy esprit gains. And having to keep track of that drift makes the whole job quite a bit more finnicky imo.

[Valence]

Walking casts I think are a good identity baseline for the phys ranged (as right now their “identity” is they don’t have one as they don’t have any constraints) but I can also see people arguing “well walking casts you can still move so they still need a ranged movement tax” like people currently argue

BRD as a job I think is perfectly fine complexity wise (actual design wise not so much but that’s beside the point), give it 40% uptime on walking casts and you could easily stick it around NIN level. DNC and MCH meanwhile are both phys ranged and arguably too easily especially since last dance, finishing move and dance of the dawn basically made DNC’s burst totally static. They are jobs I strongly believe actually need to be reworked (BRD needs to be reworked for its identity and disjointed kit but it’s complexity is spot on) and given something alongside walking casts

BRD is not more complex rotationally than MCH by any means. Its structure is pretty simple, and it has strong raid buff concerns for burst when it comes to optimization (putting the big hitters into the buffs). The filler and procs are extremely basic and intuitive as well and aren't even tied to dots anymore. What's complex on bard is mastering the extremely finicky and regimented GCD planning and playing around insanely sensitive timers when you want to optimize, which comes from jank more than actual intricacies (much like SMN was constantly fighting against its demis back in the days and it added a lot of "bad" complexity to the job for little reason).

MCH is nothing alike DNC, is not only one of the busiest jobs in the game, and provides a rotation at least on equal footing with BRD on getting a proper burst, but also introduces more resource management in exchange for less timer babysitting. DNC on the other hand, forgives almost every mistake and has the least optimization of the three, and only the burst is even remotely active and interesting in my eyes, the rest is very resident sleepo. I do agree that making DNC's burst more static was the biggest mistake they did with that job, as it used to be close to BRD's by being the only two jobs with changing burst patterns and triaging priorities in the game.

I don't want walking casts because I frankly find it boring design wise. We already have casters and melees, and I don't find is extremely creative to just say "hey let's make them like ninja and viper" but with some casts and range. We're talking about an actual DPS subrole, not a subset of the melee DPS role. I don't find is a lot more appealing than just turning rphys into full casters so that what's only remaining is ranged DPS vs melee DPS.

I still do feel that some of the core facets of those jobs used to exist, and that's what needs to be brought back as a true core part of the role identity. Party resource support will obviously not come back without a full battle system rework or rollback, so that's out of the picture, but a proc system more interesting than what's left right now? Yes, they could bring back ammo and the likes. They could make a more involved ammo system part of the defining traits of the role for example (but I don't know in what form exactly I'll be honest). Rphys would become the role that plays and juggle with ammo, perhaps of different types. Either way, ammo introduced a superior layer to the just "press the glowy button" because it introduced triaging and choice on the spot, which was one of the main features of the role before. I do not over-exaggerate when I say this as I do believe that what used to make rphys and is only currently present as a shadow of its former self within BRD and DNC is the triaging part built around rng and a constant upkeep/maintenance over a non deterministic rotation. Having a more intricate rotation is probably the lead I find the more appealing because if you don't have positionals or range to take care of, or cast times, then perhaps you have more time to input into the rotation and the kit itself. Perhaps the role could be more appealing to players that care the most about feeling good on pulling out the most of their rotation.

When it comes to mitigation support, it's slowly fading into a sea of similarities found among other classes, even melees and casters now. Some melees have 2 supports (feint and mantra for example or even crest), some casters have unique raid wide support (magick barrier) on top of addle, and at least two of them can heal the party in significant ways, while two of them can also raise, which rphys has never been able to do. This alone has stopped long ago to define what the role is, and we can either decide to just shrug it off but at the benefit of not including it into the range tax, or actually build upon it, but I do feel it's a lost cause in the direction the game has been going and that support roles have just taken over in the mitigation department anyway.

As for raid damage support, BRD and DNC are great and the only ones reaching those levels by far, which in terms of identity is good, but could be a lot better and more involved (who misses Foe Requiem instead of press and forget raid buff buttons?).

And then, bringing back actual mechanics that can only realistically be done by the role, and it doesn't have to be about positioning or mobility either.

I'll say it again as I've read it even today or regularly anyway, and I've also experienced it during HW: we don't play rphys for cast times, else we'd go play actual casters, and we don't play rphys for positionals, else we'd go play melee dps.